Political Forum

Dear guest,

Welcome to the internet's top destination for the civil discussion of politics. This is a forum for discussion and debate of the issues, and not for personal remarks aimed at other discussants.

This forum has no political affiliation and welcomes your perspective on the issues. Membership is free. If you would like to join the discussions and debates please REGISTER HERE.

All new members should review the forum rules. The "Today's Posts" button automatically adjusts itself to fit your screen on its first use for Firefox and on its second use, for Internet Explorer. Have a pleasant day. (This is a spam free board.)

  #11 (permalink)  
Old 05-08-2008, 08:43 PM
pug_ster pug_ster is online now
Squire
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 125
Location: Brooklyn, NY, USA
Country:
Quote:
Originally Posted by notahack View Post
gotta love the free market at work and I always chuckle at articles like this. People want to dump their SUVs and huge pickups but expect to get top dollar and for someone else to want to buy it????????

next up are the 10-15 foot (3 -5 meter) high ceilings in Mcmansions that cost a small fortune to heat and cool because of the volume vs 8 foot high ceilings in traditional houses. I'm sure that will be the next article of the folks figuring out that they don't need 1,000 sq feet for every person in the home
I kinda of figure that this will happen one day. Have you ever watched The End of Suburbia?
Reply With Quote
  #12 (permalink)  
Old 05-09-2008, 01:14 AM
TeaSea TeaSea is offline
Mercenary
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 299
Location: Portland, Oregon
Country:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr House View Post
This is good news. first come SUV's, then come power grids, trucks get replaced with trains, etc. We're using too much gas. And the main reason is that driving has been subsidized and nuclear power has been over-regulated for years. Gotta love the free market at work.

It amazes me, though, how liberals can bitch about the environment and gas prices, all at the same time.

-Dr House
Umm - I think I hear more liberals say that gas prices are being kept artificially too low in this country - not too high.
Reply With Quote
  #13 (permalink)  
Old 05-09-2008, 02:17 AM
Wheeldog's Avatar
Wheeldog Wheeldog is offline
Governor General
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 854
Country:
Quote:
Originally Posted by pug_ster View Post
I kinda of figure that this will happen one day. Have you ever watched The End of Suburbia?
We are all watching the The End of Surbia each day - literally. It is not the future. It is already happening.
Reply With Quote
  #14 (permalink)  
Old 05-09-2008, 09:53 AM
Slartibartfas's Avatar
Slartibartfas Slartibartfas is online now
Moderator
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 4,493
Location: Vedunia
Country:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Troianii View Post
OK, I'm waiting for the hybrid (or H2O) SUV.
Thats nothing else than greenwashing. If you replace petrol by lets say hydrogen, the sole thing you change is that the energy is guzzled in form of hydrogen instead of petrol. That energy still has to come from somewhere and it probably won't be from renewable sources (or if it does, you can safely consider it a waste of renewable sources that are not for free either and can be better spent).

Hybrid cars have some potential indeed, even though mainly in city travel and not so much on the countryside or where travels are longer and the density of crossings is lower. It isn't sufficient to put a hybrid motor into a petrol guzzler however, the entire concept has to go towards fuel efficiency. If hybrid technology is just used as a lame excuse for an otherwise inefficient concept its of not much good.
Reply With Quote
  #15 (permalink)  
Old 05-09-2008, 09:55 AM
Slartibartfas's Avatar
Slartibartfas Slartibartfas is online now
Moderator
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 4,493
Location: Vedunia
Country:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wheeldog View Post
We are all watching the The End of Surbia each day - literally. It is not the future. It is already happening.
If Suburbia should be pushed back again for more reasonable ways of living that would be something to celebrate. There are certain trends that tend into the direction that they are passing their greatest boom alraedy, but we will have to see how it all develops. I hope the best and am looking forward for an urban revival and new "cities of short distances".

Quote:
Originally Posted by pug_ster
I kinda of figure that this will happen one day. Have you ever watched The End of Suburbia?
Its not in the US but in Europe, but Vienna saw this year the first time in its entire history a slight decrease in car ownership, while the city is doing fine economically.

Thats an interesting sign I think.

Last edited by Slartibartfas : 05-09-2008 at 10:00 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #16 (permalink)  
Old 05-09-2008, 05:13 PM
Dr House Dr House is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 119
Location: Seattle, WA
Country:
Send a message via AIM to Dr House Send a message via MSN to Dr House Send a message via Yahoo to Dr House
Quote:
Originally Posted by TeaSea View Post
Umm - I think I hear more liberals say that gas prices are being kept artificially too low in this country - not too high.
In that case I gotta give credit where it's due. That is absolutely correct. Gas is subsidized in this country. In Europe it's twice as expensive for that very reason.

-Dr House
Reply With Quote
  #17 (permalink)  
Old 05-10-2008, 12:24 AM
Wheeldog's Avatar
Wheeldog Wheeldog is offline
Governor General
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 854
Country:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slartibartfas View Post
If Suburbia should be pushed back again for more reasonable ways of living that would be something to celebrate. There are certain trends that tend into the direction that they are passing their greatest boom alraedy, but we will have to see how it all develops. I hope the best and am looking forward for an urban revival and new "cities of short distances".


Its not in the US but in Europe, but Vienna saw this year the first time in its entire history a slight decrease in car ownership, while the city is doing fine economically.

Thats an interesting sign I think.
Great attitude. All-too-often we confuse consumption with happiness. It is possible to live a relatively simple lifestyle that can be both interesting and satisfying. The coming years are going to be challenging, but there is no reason to fear the changes that they will bring. Start now by cutting back on non-essential purchases and travel. Treat it as a challenge.
Reply With Quote
  #18 (permalink)  
Old 05-10-2008, 04:30 AM
Slartibartfas's Avatar
Slartibartfas Slartibartfas is online now
Moderator
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 4,493
Location: Vedunia
Country:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wheeldog View Post
Great attitude. All-too-often we confuse consumption with happiness. It is possible to live a relatively simple lifestyle that can be both interesting and satisfying. The coming years are going to be challenging, but there is no reason to fear the changes that they will bring. Start now by cutting back on non-essential purchases and travel. Treat it as a challenge.
I would not call it a "relative simple life style", just because more people find themselves more comfortable with less cars or without them. PT as well as taking the bicycle are means of transport that don't have to feel inferior towards the car. All you need is a city design that gives the people a choice instead of forcing them into being enslaved by the car.

While your point is true, I want to make clear that just exchangeing your car does not in the least force you to live a "relative simple life style" at all. Thats what maybe opponents of alternative means of transport claim but in reality thats an entirely independent decission. Of course, you can choose both, but you clearly don't have to.
Reply With Quote
  #19 (permalink)  
Old 05-11-2008, 09:00 PM
Wheeldog's Avatar
Wheeldog Wheeldog is offline
Governor General
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 854
Country:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slartibartfas View Post
I would not call it a "relative simple life style", just because more people find themselves more comfortable with less cars or without them. PT as well as taking the bicycle are means of transport that don't have to feel inferior towards the car. All you need is a city design that gives the people a choice instead of forcing them into being enslaved by the car.

While your point is true, I want to make clear that just exchangeing your car does not in the least force you to live a "relative simple life style" at all. Thats what maybe opponents of alternative means of transport claim but in reality thats an entirely independent decission. Of course, you can choose both, but you clearly don't have to.
You make excellent points. When I use the term "simple lifestyle" it is not meant to infer inferior. Indeed, simplicity is, in my estimation, far better and more rewarding way of life than the complex and precarious fossil fuel dominated society we now have. On a personal level, I am working toward further simplifying an already relatively modest standard of living.

It is obvious that car centered urban and suburban development is on its last legs. The fact that American motorists drove fewer miles and used less gasoline over the past year - for the fist time in decades - is reflective of a tipping point in our commitment to the private auto. There is a growing trend of people trying to trade in their gas guzzling SUVs for smaller and more fuel efficient cars. Mass transit systems are seeing passenger growth. More and more people are either selling or leasing their homes in scattered suburbs and moving closer to their places of work, often in more concentrated urban areas. To me those are promising developments.
Reply With Quote
  #20 (permalink)  
Old 05-12-2008, 05:19 AM
Slartibartfas's Avatar
Slartibartfas Slartibartfas is online now
Moderator
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 4,493
Location: Vedunia
Country:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wheeldog View Post
You make excellent points. When I use the term "simple lifestyle" it is not meant to infer inferior. Indeed, simplicity is, in my estimation, far better and more rewarding way of life than the complex and precarious fossil fuel dominated society we now have. On a personal level, I am working toward further simplifying an already relatively modest standard of living.

It is obvious that car centered urban and suburban development is on its last legs. The fact that American motorists drove fewer miles and used less gasoline over the past year - for the fist time in decades - is reflective of a tipping point in our commitment to the private auto. There is a growing trend of people trying to trade in their gas guzzling SUVs for smaller and more fuel efficient cars. Mass transit systems are seeing passenger growth. More and more people are either selling or leasing their homes in scattered suburbs and moving closer to their places of work, often in more concentrated urban areas. To me those are promising developments.
I agree, I just think its important to express that those are two decisions, I understand both, but one does not need the other necessarily, ie someone who does not want a simple life still can choose to live a car less life. Thats no contradiction, it only becomes one in areas where bad planning has forced people in a dictate of the car.

Because I mentioned planning as a factor, let me give you an example: The Urban-Loritz-Platz in Vienna. Its probably the most traffiked crossing in the western half of Vienna. The extremely busy Gürtel (belt) road (4 lanes in each direction) is crossed by another street that is a major artery for cars coming from the west of Vienna and the west-Autobahn. Back in the 60's they had a great plan. They were pretty serious about turing the belt road into a´n elevated inner city highway and sacrifice the city railway line for that goal. That way one could have dramatically increased the capacity. One thought it could resolve the congestion problems that were increasingly severe. It was the best time of the "car age".

In the meantime the formerly bourgoise boulevard that the Gürtel once has been, detoriated and became a red light district with shaby houses where only people with some imagination could get an idea of the former glory.

What happened? People were not happy with those highway plans. To be more precise they hated those plans and demonstrations followed and made the city government rethinking and finally burry the Gürtel Highway plans.

Maybe thats the shisma to what took place in other cities, especially in America. The city railway did not disappear, instead it was transformed into a full subway line, later on a bicycle path made it possilbe for bicyclers to use the Gürtel as part of their route again. In the 90's fnally the City made it a priority to revive the Gürtel as urban area again after it was not much more than a transit lane and red light district anymore. The railway arcades where transformed from dark storages into night clubs, bars and restaurants as well as some shops (eg a mountainbike shop). And to come back to the Urban Loritz square, a few years ago they constructed the new main library on maybe the noisiest venues in the entire city, next to the buissest crossing in the middle of the bussiest street of Vienna. Sounds weird? Its a full success. The building has superb noise isolution, which makes the building inside noise free and by putting it at a crossroad of public transport (1 subway line 4 tram lines) its very easily reachable throughout the city. Before this library was here everyone fled that square as fast as he could, now people even take the PT with that square as very goal.

Today the Gürtel is a reassurgent urban space a new mecca of nightlife (not the red light one), a mecca for book lovers. Many buildings got renovated and its not quite as shaby as it once was, even though its not yet shining in its glory of lost days yet. The most interesting thing is however that the traffic decreased in the last 10 years 10-15% at the Gürtel.

With a highway, this development would have been impossible, the Gürtel would be as congested as before, just with a few times more cars stuck there, with a completely rund down neighborhood beyond any repair next to it.


Dont get fooled by that picture, during peek hours, those 8 lanes are filled with a sea of cars.


A picture of the new library with its cool stairs next to the square. On sunny days its a great place to hang around lying in the sun and feeling like staying above all that busy traffic with a great view of the city. On the top of it you also have a coffeehouse with the same view.

Last edited by Slartibartfas : 05-12-2008 at 07:00 AM.
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On



All times are GMT -4. The time now is 11:12 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2008, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.0.0 RC6
A vBSkinworks Design
vB Ad Management by =RedTyger=

right