The invincible American Army? - Page 2 - Political Forum

DamnYankee · #11 (**permalink**) 03-27-2008, 01:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LiveUninhibited

Hm, well the rough world total military expenditures for 2007 was 1.2 trillion dollars. America's 2008 budget is at least 583 billion dollars, i.e. America spends about as much, but probably more, than the rest of the world combined.

The majority of cost rest with the level of technology. The US might not have as many tanks, for example, as the next country. But those tanks the US has, cost more, because they are more advanced technology wise.

AzTeK · #12 (**permalink**) 03-27-2008, 01:58 PM

List of countries by size of armed forces - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

That's a pretty interesting comparison by numbers of worldwide armed forces. I'm no expert on military and do not aspire to be, so I can't really comment on what the numbers mean in the end, but at first glance the US seems very competitive to say the least.

Aircraft carriers are said to be pretty much the strongest unit there is (next only to nukes that due to practical reasons don't really are of much use other than deterrent) - I bet a US aircraft carrier could probably take most of the countries on this planet by itself -, and the US has far more than any other country and almost more than the rest of the world together.

hbloms · #13 (**permalink**) 03-27-2008, 04:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AzTeK

Aircraft carriers are said to be pretty much the strongest unit there is (next only to nukes that due to practical reasons don't really are of much use other than deterrent) - I bet a US aircraft carrier could probably take most of the countries on this planet by itself -, and the US has far more than any other country and almost more than the rest of the world together.

Yes, an american aircraft carrier can easily hold off some backwater country and if necessary render almost any military forces useless...

BUT they are not a great advantage against any of the more sophisticated nations on the planet... I mean even North Korea with their small size and low technology can take out a carrier in a single missile strike... 10 missiles are unstoppable even by the Vulcans on the side of those warships...

Personally i believe the Grand Army of Europe to be the greatest fighting force assembled... They have not yet seen any real action so it seems impossible to draw parallels... But i think that when looking at the international recognition european forces and weaponry have gotten over the past few years it seems they've assembled quite the team for the task at hand...

I know for sure that the German Leopard class tanks have by far out-gunned and outrunned any opposition except for the British Challenger class which holds the current terrain speed record...

The Danish special forces Jægerkorpset has won several international competitions and receive training in combat all over the world fx as French Foreign Legionaires in New Guinea and as Seals in the US (not actual Seals just same training). They've also got the Sirius Dogsleigh Patrol, the only arctic warfare only special forces. And the Frogman Corpse specializing in missions involving water insertion or diving.

The British Navy and the Danish Navy also is the one of the strongest Naval forces known to man having anything from sub-marines to carriers, destroyers and missile ships.

Last but not least, it's not only american forces that has been given renown for their air abilities. The Eurofighter Tycoon project is to be the first of many european sponsored projects involving superiority in all the fields of battle. The RAF and the Luftwaffe still exist to this day.

Not to mention the fact that if the entire Union was to fight as one entity they would have the largest and second most expensive army on the planet.

Goldstone69 · #14 (**permalink**) 03-27-2008, 05:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hbloms

Yes, an american aircraft carrier can easily hold off some backwater country and if necessary render almost any military forces useless...

BUT they are not a great advantage against any of the more sophisticated nations on the planet... I mean even North Korea with their small size and low technology can take out a carrier in a single missile strike... 10 missiles are unstoppable even by the Vulcans on the side of those warships...

Personally i believe the Grand Army of Europe to be the greatest fighting force assembled... They have not yet seen any real action so it seems impossible to draw parallels... But i think that when looking at the international recognition european forces and weaponry have gotten over the past few years it seems they've assembled quite the team for the task at hand...

I know for sure that the German Leopard class tanks have by far out-gunned and outrunned any opposition except for the British Challenger class which holds the current terrain speed record...

The Danish special forces Jægerkorpset has won several international competitions and receive training in combat all over the world fx as French Foreign Legionaires in New Guinea and as Seals in the US (not actual Seals just same training). They've also got the Sirius Dogsleigh Patrol, the only arctic warfare only special forces. And the Frogman Corpse specializing in missions involving water insertion or diving.

The British Navy and the Danish Navy also is the one of the strongest Naval forces known to man having anything from sub-marines to carriers, destroyers and missile ships.

Last but not least, it's not only american forces that has been given renown for their air abilities. The Eurofighter Tycoon project is to be the first of many european sponsored projects involving superiority in all the fields of battle. The RAF and the Luftwaffe still exist to this day.

Not to mention the fact that if the entire Union was to fight as one entity they would have the largest and second most expensive army on the planet.

Where to start .... The Grand Army of Europe !...i would like to see the command and control structure of any such entity, majority voting before each Battle

The M1 Abrams is superior to the Challenger if a bit on the thirsty side .

Special Forces don't win wars all are pretty good.

The US Navy is vastly superior to any European counterpart. (Even the Royal Navy

)

The USAF ditto .

If the entire Union was to fight as one entity a Squadron of Pigs would fly over my house

BobH. · #15 (**permalink**) 03-27-2008, 09:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hbloms

Yes, an american aircraft carrier can easily hold off some backwater country and if necessary render almost any military forces useless...

BUT they are not a great advantage against any of the more sophisticated nations on the planet... I mean even North Korea with their small size and low technology can take out a carrier in a single missile strike... 10 missiles are unstoppable even by the Vulcans on the side of those warships...

Personally i believe the Grand Army of Europe to be the greatest fighting force assembled... They have not yet seen any real action so it seems impossible to draw parallels... But i think that when looking at the international recognition european forces and weaponry have gotten over the past few years it seems they've assembled quite the team for the task at hand...

I know for sure that the German Leopard class tanks have by far out-gunned and outrunned any opposition except for the British Challenger class which holds the current terrain speed record...

The Danish special forces Jægerkorpset has won several international competitions and receive training in combat all over the world fx as French Foreign Legionaires in New Guinea and as Seals in the US (not actual Seals just same training). They've also got the Sirius Dogsleigh Patrol, the only arctic warfare only special forces. And the Frogman Corpse specializing in missions involving water insertion or diving.

The British Navy and the Danish Navy also is the one of the strongest Naval forces known to man having anything from sub-marines to carriers, destroyers and missile ships.

Last but not least, it's not only american forces that has been given renown for their air abilities. The Eurofighter Tycoon project is to be the first of many european sponsored projects involving superiority in all the fields of battle. The RAF and the Luftwaffe still exist to this day.

Not to mention the fact that if the entire Union was to fight as one entity they would have the largest and second most expensive army on the planet.

No disrespect, but it wouldn't be one Nation versus just one US Carrier, I suspect there would be a number of screening ships like Destroyers and the like, as well as several other Carrier Groups in the area.

I won't argue about the European Army, because it has never had to defended itself much less defend another country or countries.

It's just not all that easy to do, the logistics alone would rule out most of the World's Military.

I can tell you that as long as there has been NATO, the US has picked up most of the tab (costs), supplies most of the troops, tanks, equipment, logistics and etc.

I would ask did where the Euopean Army get it's experience.

Yes, the UK is probably the most experienced, and ranks among the best in troops, supplies, equipment, training, etc., in the world.

However how about the rest?

IMHO

Kenny · #16 (**permalink**) 03-27-2008, 09:58 PM

We can debate about who has the world largest military all day long. But, the fact is, the United States wouldn't dare wage war with not even a single world power because US knows that there wont be a winner no matter if they have the most powerful military or not. China could invade Taiwan at this moment, and US wouldn't do anything other then talk and talk. But, if someone like Burma attacked Taiwan, US would be the first on board.

And, regardless of your political stance, lets be honest and admit that China wouldn't hesitant to use nuclear force against the US if invaded, despite retaliation. We all know that China doesn't currently have the capabilities to invade the US, but lets face reality and realize that the US wouldn't declare step foot in Chinese mainland due to their nuclear power. It would be a death wish for the United States.

Also, lets note that a war with China would certainly be the fall of US economy. It would hit US citizens very hard. After the war with China we would be in a country with less civil liberties and poverty rates at an all time high. Most people don't even know that China funds the U.S. war in Iraq. Without China, we can expect slave tax along with insane gas prices and extreme poverty....100 times worst then the Great Depression. US would actually lose more then China economically.

JLB · #17 (**permalink**) 03-27-2008, 10:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hbloms

Yes, an american aircraft carrier can easily hold off some backwater country and if necessary render almost any military forces useless...

BUT they are not a great advantage against any of the more sophisticated nations on the planet... I mean even North Korea with their small size and low technology can take out a carrier in a single missile strike... 10 missiles are unstoppable even by the Vulcans on the side of those warships...

Not a chance...

Quote:

Originally Posted by hbloms

Personally i believe the Grand Army of Europe to be the greatest fighting force assembled... They have not yet seen any real action so it seems impossible to draw parallels... But i think that when looking at the international recognition european forces and weaponry have gotten over the past few years it seems they've assembled quite the team for the task at hand...

The "Grand Army of Europe" has had to have America rescue them twice in the last 100 years.

Quote:

Originally Posted by hbloms

I know for sure that the German Leopard class tanks have by far out-gunned and outrunned any opposition except for the British Challenger class which holds the current terrain speed record...

The Danish special forces Jægerkorpset has won several international competitions and receive training in combat all over the world fx as French Foreign Legionaires in New Guinea and as Seals in the US (not actual Seals just same training). They've also got the Sirius Dogsleigh Patrol, the only arctic warfare only special forces. And the Frogman Corpse specializing in missions involving water insertion or diving.

The US has both a qualitative and quantitative advantage in armor.

Germany has 408 Leopard IIs in service.

Britain has around 386 Challenger IIs.

The US Armed Forces has:

1174 M1A2 (Army inventory)
4393 M1A1 (Army inventory)
403 M1A1 (USMC inventory)

I should also point out that the Australian upgraded from the Leopard to the Abrams.

In Desert Storm exactly 1 crewmember died in an Abrams, and that was after it was hit three times by another tank and once with an RPG.

Quote:

Originally Posted by hbloms

The British Navy and the Danish Navy also is the one of the strongest Naval forces known to man having anything from sub-marines to carriers, destroyers and missile ships.

One of two British carriers (HMS Invincible) and one of twelve US carriers (USS John C. Stennis).

That about sums it up, eh?

Now add in the most advanced attack and missile subs in the world, and the most advanced missile ships with the Aegis system, and you have a navy that is more powerful than the rest of the combined navies of the world.

Quote:

Originally Posted by hbloms

Last but not least, it's not only american forces that has been given renown for their air abilities. The Eurofighter Tycoon project is to be the first of many european sponsored projects involving superiority in all the fields of battle. The RAF and the Luftwaffe still exist to this day.

Not to mention the fact that if the entire Union was to fight as one entity they would have the largest and second most expensive army on the planet.

The Typhoon is a generation behind the F-35 Raptor, and is inferior in every way. In 20 years Europe may have a fighter that will equal the F-35, but we'll be ahead by 30 years by that point.

You can't hit what you can't see.

Roundeye · #18 (**permalink**) 03-27-2008, 11:38 PM

Well, the US intelligence community knows just about what every country in the world has, what it's got in R&D (research and development) and how countries it could potentionally come into conflict with trains and fights. What you forget sir is that the US also has the best intelligence force in the world serveral times over. This is something that is too often overlooked when considering a conflict between nations on this forum.

You bring up China, but China does not come close to the US. Nukes would not be used in a conflict with China, first of all. Second, China can't hit the US with a conventional weapon from its mainland. The US can. China doesn't have much of a navy. The US has the most powerful navy in the world, and has ships and subs in the pacific that can strike China from where they are now. We won't even get into air superiority because it's a laughable comparison. The PLA is nowhere near as trained or equipped as the US Army and Marine Corps. In a conflict with China, ground troops wouldn't be needed until after China surrenders, and would be used as an occupying force to ensure compliance and stability in the country.

In a nutshell, the US could defeat China, bringing the war to China itself, within a month or two, give or take. It will be decades before China can even remotely begin to bring to the table what the US can.

dahermit · #19 (**permalink**) 03-28-2008, 12:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hbloms

I've gotten this crazy idea that most americans believe they have the greatest fighting force on the planet called Earth...

Which facts (if any) do they build this claim on?

As far as i can see the American Army is far from an exceptional institution.
They were in a couple of world wars where they luckily came out on the winning side, but really... What makes the Army so extemely dangerous that no other force should oppose it?
The Iraqi forces fought and still fights the Army. Same goes for the Afghan militias. And the African ones too. No country they have fought in the last 10 years has given up.
Actually, no country they have fought in 50 years has given up...

Russia is growing once again. China is about to out do USA. Europa finally seems like it has rebuild itself. North Korea, Somalia, Iraq, Iran, Vietnam and Afghanistan. All standing while the dollar falls, the army loses and noone seems to be getting any happier within the american borders.

Now i repeat my question: Which facts (if any) do they build this claim on?

Why is the american army so great? 60% of the population has more faith in the army than in any other institution. Where does this come from?

The American army has many strengths, but also several weaknesses that you have pointed out. It is arguably the best equipped army in the world, but it has the glaring weakness of not being able to sustain an indefinite war. Also, unlike WWII when we had the greatest industrial capacity in the world, I doubt if our manufacturing capability could produce the goods required during that conflict now. Nevertheless, industrial capacity more than luck determined the victors in WWI and WWII.
Furthermore, changing from compulsive military service to a smaller all volunteer army may not have been the best course of events.

mairead · #20 (**permalink**) 03-28-2008, 12:31 AM

ERM, JLB,
The United States refused to take part when WW2 broke out and only became involved after the Japanese struck Pearl Harbour. The rest of Europe had been fighting the Nazis long before that.
There was around 16 allied nations fighting in that war and many of these fought against the Japanese who had struck at America.