Fong

Well I don't believe that Americans are that rigid, if you were, you would still have slavery.

You adapted that, you changed that. So you can change other things. This was the point I was making, yes your founding fathers I think did a grand job, considering the time period that they lived in.

If you had told Jefferson or Franklin that America would have over 300 million inhabitants, they would have laughed in your face, I am not sure there were 300m people on the 'known' planet at the time.

Also saying that you want to change previous ideals does not mean you do not stand for anything, it means you stand for something, just it isn't what was there 200 years ago.

I want to abolish slavery...oh you stand for nothing!

How does that make sense to you?

Now I understand the selfish desire not to have to pay more tax, we all have it, but if I said to you, instead of a tax to pay for education, it was a tax designed to lower crime....then you might have a different opinion, probably not in this context because you know the double meaning, but if you were unaware, I think you might say, ok I don't mind paying more if we can lower crime.

The point a couple of us have made is that an educated populace is better for everyone, in economic terms, in terms of crime rates and just in general terms of having a better society.

Fong

Here is another thought on why Society is better with an educated populace.

Elections.

If your population is well educated, then your politicians have to make a lot more sense.

Right now your politicans seem to come out and bang a drum on certain issues depending on where they are. If they are in the south, they bang on about immigration and Christianity, just look at Mike Huckabee at the moment, the mans a disgrace. Romney is the same, changing his opinion with a click of his fingers because he knows it will play well with certain voters.

If your voters are well educated, as many Americans are, those tactics don't work. You actually have to come up with policies and ideas and you need to talk straight and explain well. You can't just come out and say some tired old bumper sticker phrases and expect to win votes.

Not singling out America here, I expect if Britain was larger and had centers of different opinions like you seem to have in America, our politicians would do the same thing, because our population is no more educated then yours is.

I am just saying, the better educated a population, the better your politicians have to be.

Shiva_TD

Having to strive to obtain a college degree, whether it is through scholastic achievement warranting a scholarship or by working your way through college builds character and is as vital to overall learning experience as obtaining the degree itself. I work with professional engineers and every single one of them worked their way through college to a greater or lessor degree (forgive the pun) and all of them are better engineers because of it.

If for no other reason I would oppose a "free" college education for this reason alone. Society benefits far more from those that face challenges and overcome them than it does from someone just having a college degree.

Far from being detrimental, the requirement for tuition is beneficial for both society and the individual. The work ethic and conviction to set a goal, make the plans to reach that goal, revising those plans as circumstances dictate, and seeing those plans through so that the goal is reached is more important than anything else.

nerv14

The point you are bringing up is that people will be motivated to do well in school to get schollarships and even though motivation for people is important the same requirement can still be placed on people when college is free. Even if all colleges were free there would still be a a requirment to get into the best schools. Even though the drive to get schollarship money would make people develope themselves more, there is still reasons to work hard to get into competative schools. I also consider it unfair for peopel who can afford college to allow their children to go to good colleges easier because of the parent's and not the child's work or abillity.

Students can also still work through college to get money to support themselves with food and other expenses for college. Work skilles are very important but if a college wants its students to have that skill so strongly than it can be involved in the curriculum and the school should have the say if its students should work. It is the school's responsibility if work skills must be gained at the school and it shouldn't be required for poorer familys. Once again it is unfair for richer students to be able to skip work for their parent's effort in gaining money.

Fong

I don't believe that funding your actual course needs to be a part of that.

Getting a degree, should be a bit of a challenge, and it should in the case of engineers include a certain amount of practical work.

I don't believe financial hardship really helps anyone, some people claim it as something that helped them get where they are today, like some self made millionaires, but, usually after they die, you realise that they were seriously damaged people, unable to relate to the real world in many ways.

This isn't to say every self made man is like this, but those that seem to think that their time spent in poverty helped them, well yeah them.

Poverty doesn't help anyone.

edit - Well poverty does help some people, obviously, usually those making huge sums of money off the back of people they are exploiting, which is why many British and American manufacturing Jobs have gone abroad

Fong

That is a really good point. Something I don't think anyone else had mentioned up to this point.

Why should your chances of entering a good college be based on work your parents did? You didn't work hard and make a lot of money, your parents did.

ThresholdOutlet

That is a good point. Also, the ambition to do good academically should come from the want of a good job. Students should strive for future work, not a college choice.

__________________
"Experience is simply the name we give our mistakes."

"It is horrifying that we have to fight our own government to save the environment."

"Nothing in education is so astonishing as the amount of ignorance it accumulates in the form of inert facts."

ThresholdOutlet

I don't like schools. You'll notice as you read this. Anything one does will build character. I worked as a bartender for four years, and I think it was character building. I believe I took a few wrong roads in my life, and learned from it. But the least I've leaned during my short stay on this planet is in college. What exactly do they teach people? I write a worthless essay in twenty minutes, bring it to the comp II professor, he writes 100% on it, and I leave. In business classes, I write even shorter papers, or fill in bubbles. I suffer through, though, because I want a good job. It would be nice if they taught me something to help with a future career.

__________________
"Experience is simply the name we give our mistakes."

"It is horrifying that we have to fight our own government to save the environment."

"Nothing in education is so astonishing as the amount of ignorance it accumulates in the form of inert facts."

Shiva_TD

Spoken like a true socialist. If, through a lack of motivation, some people can't meet the standard then lower the standard. That has been an inherent problem with our "free" public K-12 education. They have lowered the standards so far that kids can graduate high school and still not be able to read. Hell, if you want we can lower the standards for a college degree to the point that all that needs to be done is to address an envelope to mail off for a "free" degree. No classes required at all. We'll just give everyone a degree.

And I would argue that having once lived in poverty does help those that overcome it. I've been homeless and even lived in a hole in the ground at one point but I overcame those obsticles in life and believe that I am a better person for it. Like many I worked minimum wage jobs and worked my way up paying my own way without any government assistance to where I am today. Of course poverty doesn't benefit those that choose to continue living in poverty but then those are not the people that would go to college in the first place.

And socialist spouting that the wealthy exploit the poor is pure poppycock. No one in America is required to work in a deadend low paying job. Everyone has the opportunity to constantly improve their situation either through job advancement and/or educational achievement. Yes, it takes self-motivation to establish goals, make plans to achieve those goals, change the plan as required to achieve those goals, and to be dedicated to the point that you achieve those goals. These are the same virtues that are required to go to college and get a degree and they are important in the development of the individual and are inherently more important for all people whether they strive for a college degree or not.

No, we should not lower the standards for obtaining a college degree. If anything we should be raising them.

Shiva_TD

I would present a question.

Does anyone have a single case of an individual that was dedicated to obtaining a college degree, that established that goal, planned to succeed in obtaining that goal, and carried through on those plans, not graduating from college?

There are literally millions of people that do this in the United States and only a lack of motivation prevents those that seek a college education from obtaining one. The cost of tuition is an insignificant factor when it comes to obtaining a college degree.