The thing is here you claim 'anyone' can do it, then put in tenents that just don't apply to some people.

"if you stay at home"

what if that isn't possible? What if you don't fit the ethnic, sporty, scholastic, one legged lesbian from lithuania (As our Conservative leader put it) criteria?

Then education is not available to you.

Which means it is not available to everyone. It is only available to those that meet certain criteria or can live in a certain way..ie at home.

Okay, let's all be clear here. A few points of note.

Poverty does not lead to crime - which is not what this thread was about. Boy, how we have steered away.

My reference to statistics is simple. People take statistics to say a number of things. I have not argued about any of those things that was pointed out about infant mortality rates, crime rates, etc. Why? Because there are just as many statistics to show a number of other things about Europe that don't paint a pretty picture. Again, not the point. Also, those statistics don't paint the entire picture. What are the root causes? The question is rhetorical because no one statistic shows that. A case can be made for lack of education being the root cause for a number of things. So can the lack of proper pre-natal care, lack of fathers present at home, lack of proper nutrition, blah blah blah.

Now for the thought on capitalism. I am glad to hear that you are in favor of capitalism. I apologize if I insulted you by calling you a socialist.

If we continue to allow the government to provide for things we begin to remove the motivation for people to succeed. We become dependent upon the Nanny State as I referred to it. The original post pertained to the notion that higher education should be free (or at tax payer expense). Through all of this I still maintain that it should be the responsibility of the person seeking the degree to make payment. As someone who has just finished with higher ed, the availability of funds is virtually unlimited to those who want it. Shoot, I was handed a $2,000 scholarship that I did not even apply for. Is this a great country or what?

I am a socialist. I find the term non-offensive. Being a socialist doesn't preclude my ability to be a capitalist, it just tempers it slightly.

The arguments about poverty, infant mortality etc etc were based upon the idea that you pretty much expressed at the end of your piece.

"the responsibility of the person seeking the degree to make payment."

Thing is society as a whole gains from an educated populace, that was the point we were making. That not only does the person who gets the education gain, but so do the rest of us.

So why shouldn't we pay for it as a society and make all our lives better?

While we can sit there saving a few quid in taxes (if you naive to think that then good luck to you) while at the same time living in places with Ghettos, ridiculous crime rates, infant mortality, lower life expectancy then most other countries etc etc etc.

I would rather 'donate' a few extra quid into the kitty through taxes and live in a society that didn't suffer quite soo much.

Which is what I do.

I live in a country that has better infant mortality, better life span, lower crime rates (though of course we still suffer crime) etc etc etc and I live in a country that works with a welfare state.

As a trained music teacher, I can work anywhere in the world. There is a massive shortage of music teachers all over the place, given my qualifications and life history, I could emigrate to America anytime I liked.

I have seriously considered it, but I prefer the welfare state of the UK, I prefer the idea of paying that little extra to make sure that hte society I live in is better.

The problem with america is that those with wealth lock themselves behind closed environments where if a black bloke turns up the police are on the scene asking him why he is there in mere minutes, so these people don't give a fuck about society beyond their own little enclosure.

The rest of you have to live with the manifestations of these societal problems, but seem almost convinced that it is better for you.

I find this all very strange and have never really understood the American mind set, I understand the principles but I can't understand how you can't see through the tissue of lies and bullshit that keep you where you are.

I always think to myself when debating with Americans that at any moment they are going to go:

"Holy crap how did I not see that!"

Yet it never happens, I just can't get my head around the idea that generally Americans are NOT in favour of Free Health, Free Education, a Welfare State that protects the most vulnerable and is there to make society better for everyone.

I just can't understand how the ideal of making society better for EVERYONE is anathema to some people.

Last post before i go teaching for the afternoon.

I understand that some of you believe that your way is the way to make society better as a whole. What I don't understand is how you can continue to cling to that conclusion given the vast amount of evidence around you that shows that in almost any catagory you wish to choose, other countries that have more of a welfare state do better then you.

Sure you succeed in areas where individual wealth is concerned, but on a societal level, you fail miserably compared to almost any other civilised, western, industrial nation.

Yet still tenaciously you cling to the idea that your way is best.

It really does boggle my mind.

Well the schools were doing fine relaly before the federal government took them over. Which begs the question, why do we allow our government to run things inefficiently to begin with?

What boggles my mind is that people honestly think the best way to help people is to conform everyone into mind numb robots where the only choice is government ownership, which leads to decreased rights of the people and the states.

This issue is mute. I dont think it is that big a deal really except from those people, who want their hands held through point of entry into the world till the day they leave this world. It stems from the education system itself with 15 point curves on tests to simply passing students who knowingly cant read or write. We are breeding mediocre citizens who want to be held accountability for nothing in their lives and want to blame others b/c they dont have what they think they deserve.

The dumber our society, the easier it is for an overreaching government to control its citizens. Why do you think most people dont realize the government has no jurisdiction in such things? They were never taught that the Constitution limits the federal government and empowers the state government over it. Unfortunately the states would rather be told what to do by the federal government which also destroys its rights through judges who are federally controlled. Our Constitution dies a slow death b/c people "feel" it is the right thing to do, which in many cases goes against reality.

Look at the Virginia Resolutions of 1798. Pretty insightful stuff there.

But hey, to every man his own.....

You say you are a teacher, do you teach for free? If so then come on over and give out free education to people.

What always amazes me is how people from other countries have been brainwashed into thinking they are getting that stuff for FREE. That Welfare States make anything better for everyone.

Tell me how would a welfare state make my life better?

There are no appreciable differences in those stats, except for perhaps crime where you don't do so good compared to us but we offer more freedom, more opportunity, more productive economy.

FYI

"In the middle of March 1998 the third International Crime Victimisation Survey (ICVS) was quietly published. Its findings were quite shocking, it revealed that the highest incidence of violent crime in the industrialised world was in England and Wales. The Home Office submission to the Cullen enquiry was based upon the previous ICVS but the publication of this report received little attention.

US FlagNow that its mid October it appears the British media has finally woken up and smelt the coffee, several national papers and major TV networks have covered the story following the publication of a US Department of Justice report. The report, echoing the ICVS, shows that you are more likely to be mugged in England and Wales than in the US. Many American cities are now safer than they were 10 years ago, in Britain inner city crime continues to rise. The report also reveals that the criminal justice system in Britain is much worse at detecting and prosecuting criminals than its US counterpart.

Patrick Langan, a senior statistician with the US Department of Justice, commented:

"With most people, the perception is that crime rates are much higher in the United States. In fact, rates are now higher in England for most types of major crime. The robbery rate in England and Wales, including muggings, is 40% higher. The assault, burglary and automobile threat rates are getting on for double those in the US." "

Crime: The UK and the US

And it's getting worse their and better here.

Then come on over and teach for free. I could use a little help with my modes. FYI my grandfather was the first inductee into the American Bandmasters Musem and was dean of the Dixie Band Camp for decades. And when he was a teacher they raised all their own money, didn't get anything from the government and these were HUGE bands.

Then come here and pay less and live a great society, that offers you the opportunity to reach your goals, exceed your goals and provide for yourself the things you want.

I think you have a very bigoted view in the United States.

Did you know that charitable giving in the US is about DOUBLE (as a percentage of GDP) what you do in the UK. Yeah we are just a bunch of cold hearted Scrooges. Our rich give over 6 times to the poor what your rich do.

And there are no societal problems in the UK?


Perhaps because you have such a warped view of the US.

So let me get this straight.

I made an example very early in this thread of a hypothetical situation, where the welfare state helps.

You lambasted me for not know who you are, what you earn, what kids you have blah blah blah.

Now you come back and are asking me to take wild guesses at your lifestyle?

Make up your mind.

The welfare state isn't going to make every single individual's life better, you think if Bill Gates moved to the UK his life would be made better by the Welfare State?

Of course not, what the Welfare State does, as I have described several times, is make the society in which you live in better. Not particularly YOUR individual circumstances.

VoR those figures are very manipulated.

Look at what it is. Not recorded crime. No, its victims relating of crime.

The most unreliable data possible, because it is based on 'feelings'

The glaring exception is the U.S. murder rate, which is about six times higher than in other industrialized nations.

6 times higher. You got 6 times more chance of being murdered.

Also these figures are a decade old.

In 1998, "New" Labour had been in power for a year and completely changed the way in which the police counted crime. They were unhappy with the way the Conservatives had been using clever manipulation to downplay crime during the early 90s when there was a recession on....oh look, recession...more crime...but I forgot poverty has nothing to do with crime....

So the fact that in 1998 our figures went a bit wonky as we were dealing with the change and therefore the perception of crime changed as people were seeing highlighted numbers in excess of what they had seen previously, doesn't really surprise me.

So no its not shocking that in 1998 a survey taken on how people felt about the fear of crime showed a number greater then in America...for that single year.

Also this is another, England stopped offering Free Education quite awhile ago. Again, this is a debate on the ideal, I wish my Government would bring back free education for all too. I believe it would certainly help stop our country on its slide into American crime figures.

You could even take that as more evidence.

Here is a country that did far better then America on soo many things, that has given up its socialist ideals of making life better for everyone and taken on the mantle of the American dream of 'everyone for themselves' and what favours has it done us?

None.

You could learn from our mistakes, but I doubt you will.