Locke9-05

A plant that when used in such an idiotic way induces side effects such as paranoia, hallucinations, psychosis, and in some cases--schizophrenia like symptoms. Yes, a plant with that much worthless, harmful potential could easily tear a family apart. The "state" families are in has little to do with any worthless mental or physical addiction that yields side-effects that are unpleasant, unhealthy and potentially hazardous to nonusers as well as the user.

__________________
"Ask not what your country can do for you; ask what you can do for your country."
-John F. Kennedy

"Education begins the gentleman, but reading, good company and reflection must finish him."
-John Locke

"What worries you, masters you."
-John Locke
___________________

nerv14

I think that the quote that you used is in the center of the debate but I still don't think that marijuana harms the individuals who don't use it. The mental states that you were describing don't seem that harmful to other people, especialy since if marijuana is legalized there will be other laws to slightly restrict it.

Most likely it will have to smoked inside in a place that is designated for its use or in someone's home. That means that even if someone is effected by it, they still won't be able to harm randome people. Obviously, driving while being high would also be illegal. With those percautions I don't see marijuana hurting non-users and that is why people should have a coice to use it if they want.

Locke9-05

You would be completely incorrect, then... Individuals experiencing psychosis, hallucinations, bouts of paranoia, etc. are mentally unstable individuals and just because you as an individual who supports marijuana legalization don't perceive those completely hazardous side-effects to be a threat or harming to nonusers hardly makes it so. Quite the opposite. I've posted evidence throughout this topic that shows exactly the opposite. People experiencing those kinds of side-effects from general mental conditions are usually prescribed with medication to contain those side-effects or even hospitalized. People using a selfish stupid drug that induces those side-effects is just absurd. It's a huge unnecessary risk and society will not tolerate it.
This is what I love about these debates. Everyone has a different idea about what "legalization" would mean--even those who are in favor of it. There's no way you can rationally describe what would "most likely" happen if marijuana was legalized (which it will not be) because it's something that has not happened and it's something that everyone sees differently. If you need a drug to get some selfish, stupid high that induces side-effects that are unpleasant, unhealthy, and potentially hazardous to those around you, go to a different country that doesn't recognize the rights of nonusers--the collective populace. This nation is a collectivist nation. Because pot is a selfish want, those who are negatively affected by it take automatic priority and society recognizes that.

__________________
"Ask not what your country can do for you; ask what you can do for your country."
-John F. Kennedy

"Education begins the gentleman, but reading, good company and reflection must finish him."
-John Locke

"What worries you, masters you."
-John Locke
___________________

nerv14

How would legalizing marijuana harm non-users? Sorry if you already posted why a while back but if you could quote yourself, thx.

I think Marijuana has been legalized in the UK and the Neitherlands, and I haven't heard any horrible effects from their legalization.

As i have said before isn't America not collectivist because of lower taxes that don't harm the individual as much even if that may harm the society more. The whole small government ideology that most Americans, even democrats, have compared to Europeans makes us less inclined to have a strong government, even if it will be better for the society.

LiveUninhibited

There's no reason to suspect that legalization, if it ever occurs, would be without restrictions. Cigarette smokers must smoke in designated areas, there's no reason that the same couldn't apply to marijuana.

I don't think there's much of a consensus that America is supposed to be a collectivist nation. Actually, America was founded as one of the most individualistic nations ever, and that was called liberty.

I believe your notions of the intoxicative effects of marijuana are also overstated. It is true that everybody responds differently to different psychotropic drugs, but hallucinations and psychosis are not common side effects of marijuana use. Marijuana causes mild if any physical dependence, and psychological dependence is based upon how pleasureable something is to the user. Those who experience unpleasant effects are unlikely to continue using marijuana for long. Usually, people who use marijuana become more calm. Unlike alcohol, marijuana normally decreases violent tendencies.

And one thing that you haven't tried to address is that the solution of drug control not only doesn't substantially reduce drug use, and may actually increase drug abuse, but drug control also introduces new problems that strain and harm society at least as much as the drugs themselves.

Locke9-05

Are you kidding? I just said... Marijuana induces side-effects like psychosis, hallucinations, paranoia, impaired cognitive abilities, and even schizophrenia-like symptoms.

Cannabis psychosis

Oh, here's a good one:

Cannabis and mental health -- Rey and Tennant 325 (7374): 1183 -- BMJ
Psychiatric illness, eh? That's bad enough for society to give off a loud and clear "no." People who succumb to psychiatric illness naturally (without stupid selfish drugs) are prescribed medication to keep the effects of such illnesses under control and sometimes they're hospitalized for the sake of themselves and others. As more studies are conducted about marijuana, it seems fairly obvious that nothing positive results from its use and generally, the effects are outwardly hazardous and harmful.
In the UK? I don't think so, no. As for the Netherlands, here's something interesting

CBS - Murder rate tripled - Web magazine
What was the one major change in legal policy that occurred over that exact same time period? The decriminalization of marijuana.
No, there is a necessary balance between the people and the government. The weaker the government is, the weaker your rights are... The government is the only thing--the central authority--that enforces your rights. Marijuana is not a right. Marijuana is a mindless indulgence--nothing but a selfish pleasure and one that negatively affects the lives of others. It does not meet those standards.

__________________
"Ask not what your country can do for you; ask what you can do for your country."
-John F. Kennedy

"Education begins the gentleman, but reading, good company and reflection must finish him."
-John Locke

"What worries you, masters you."
-John Locke
___________________

pedex

there's that correlation vs causation fallacy yet again, the Netherlands decriminalized marijuana in 1976, its homicide rate remains quite small relative to most 1st world countries with criminal laws against marijuana, range of .8 to 1.0 per 100,000, it started climbing well before decriminalized pot and got up to 1.81 and has since fallen back again to the .9-1.0 range

using the same correlation vs causation logic a person could insinuate all kinds of theories about the US LOL, or any other country for that matter

only policy change in a 25 year period? absurd

List of countries by homicide rate - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

LiveUninhibited

There is a difference between causality and this so-called link. The author does not even claim causality, just that there is a correlation and possible causality since the relationship does not appear to be explained by self-medication. In all likelihood, people who regularly use marijuana are also less likely to have better things to do, less likely to accrue social, cultural or human capital through the wider society, and less likely to have meaningful lives, which could easily be the confounding factor that leads to both depression and heavy marijuana use. A myriad of other factors could be involved.

I followed some links in the review, and it appears that the writer of the review article is biased and overstates the impact of marijuana. For example:

From: Hall W, Degenhardt L. Cannabis and psychosis. Aust N Z J Psychiatry 2000; 34: 26-34

This doesn't sound much like the review you cited, where he says, "The link between cannabis and psychosis is well established." It also shows that it may not be use per se that is problematic, but rather increased THC content. Rising THC may be inevitable, but under a legal market it could be controlled to some degree. Some of the studies also note that the use of other drugs is confounding, and again in a regulated market, users would be able to obtain marijuana with a reduced risk of unknown extra drugs laced with the marijuana.

Looking at the other works cited, some sound like the author you cited, and others believe the issue is not yet well understood.

But in any case, I don't think anybody was trying to argue that marijuana is totally harmless, just that it does more harm to society than good by having it illegal.

It took me awhile to find the date, but de facto decriminalization was pegged at 1976, which is about halfway through that period. The rise in violence begins a decade before the decriminalization, so I don't think you can conclude that they're at all related.

I do know that American drug enforcement is a positive correlate of homicide, and that drug use is not correlated with homicide in America.

nbzek54

Locke, your arguments are well constructed and I find myself agreeing with much of what you say. Well done, sir.

The Lying Dutchman

never had or met anyone someone with these symptoms, quite an overestimation of what it can do.