Gumbercules

I think misguided is a more appropriate term. I like the old saying about the road to hell being paved with good intentions to describe these cradle to grave entitlements so many people are screeching for. I guess I would use the same answer to address Superbugs question also. I don't believe these people are evil, as repulsive as their methods may be. I will see if I can find a link for it, but there is a book coming out that points to a lot of statistical differences between liberals and conservatives. One of those was that conservatives give much more to charity than liberals, but all you ever seem to hear is that conservatives are evil and don't care about the poor and that liberals are the enlightened ones who care about everyone. It wasn't just money either, conservatives typically donate more blood and time than liberals also, no matter where they fall on the economic spectrum. Superbug, I think your signature says it best. It is always easier to spend someone elses money. So these people pushing for entitlements mean well, they just want the government to handle it. Unfortunately for them private charities seem to be able to handle it much better than government.

Ygorl

Yeah, probably. Though sometimes the misguided bring evil results.

Like I was saying above :-)

Oh those EVIL money grubbing conservatives

Yes, it's a charade based largely on ignorance. Liberal ignorance that is. But they know BEST don't ya know ?

More and more people are waking up to the dangerous societal disorder known as liberalism. It STARTED out good. Like many things that start out good their true purpose has become dangerous and VERY misguided.

drgoodtrips

And yet, society thought slavery was acceptable, and so it was. And you can strain really, really hard, with every fiber of moral indignation that you can muster, and you won't change that fact. Society condoned it, ergo it was acceptable to that society.

Society cannot control the shape of planets. It can and does, however, control what it considers to be acceptable and moral. If you want an example of shifting morality, consider that we find the idea of incest to be repugnant, but God created Eve from Adam and put them in a situation where their children had to have sex with each other and probably with them. So, even God's morality blows with the winds of time.

drgoodtrips

It's "wrong" to do the horrific latter act in the sense of "wrong" meaning "immoral". It's not wrong in the same context as your first, mathematical example. There is no factual error involved.


You're begging the question. Men create religion, so what you're saying is, since men are unable to determine what is evil, men turn to men who claim to understand God. I'd imagine that is the source of the "screw-ups" to which you allude. God tells some to live a chaste life and others to blow up school busses - he's a wacky guy to hear the faithful tell it

We're not unique there (and I don't think anyone is actively participating in this as a malicious party). All societies have shifted the definitions of evil. Human sacrifice, slavery, adults marrying children, killing adulterers... these all used to be good wholesome practices endorsed by many societies, and now they aren't. "Evil" (in society) is simply what is unacceptable at any given time.

drgoodtrips

That's an interesting take. In an anarcho-capitalist society (hands off my money, you welfare queens!), might makes right. If someone can manipulate the laws of the free market to screw you out of your money legally (i.e. a smooth-talking vacuum salseman), is this evil, or just clever?

Of course, the government takes your money and redistributes it all the time in the form of taxes. You seem to find this morally offensive, but apparently enough voters disagree with you to allow the government to do this "wrong" act anyway. Of what use are your opinions about what is right and what isn't if you are powerless to enforce them?


So, who is the ultimate arbiter of what is right and what isn't? It isn't you is it?

superbug

God.



_______

drgoodtrips

Fair enough. So, God decided what is right and wrong (as I stipulated in the first "case" of my original post), and we mortals have discussions online and fight wars about just exactly what He decided, without ever really reaching a consensus. So, we'll all be judged, eventually, by whichever, if any, religion's God is the right one.

But, that doesn't really help us much here in the meantime on Earth. Until we face Divine Retribution, it's really up to us to sort out what is evil and what isn't. And, as such, there are as many moral compasses and opinions on the matter as there are people. So, we're back at square one - we collectively decide what's evil and what isn't.

USViking

OK.




This view seems to me to be vunerable to argumentum ad populum,
leaving us with no sound philosphical ground for calling anything evil.


I would prefer some absolute position, although I admit I have not
tried to think the matter through enough to arrive at a satisfactory
view of my own.

__________________
From the fury of the Northmen, Good Lord deliver us.

drgoodtrips

Keep in mind that I'm arguing that such is the way things are in reality and not necessarily how they ought to be. I personally have my own moral compass and, I like to think that it's a pretty respectable one. But, I also recognize that it is mine and mine alone, and the same is true for each and every person. It is the merging of all of these moral compasses that creates a society, for better or for worse.

I think many people would prefer an absolute position. But, sans God weighing in on the issue, that's not really possible. Even if we amalgamated some of the most noble and bright thinkers of our time to hammer out a plan, it would still be the product of various subjective opinions.

drgoodtrips

And, out of curiosity, how would we establish sound philisophical ground for calling something evil?

Is killing evil?

Well, of course. Unless you're talking about the death penalty. Or wars. Or, if someone breaks into your home. Or, if someone's really sick and in a lot of pain. Or if we're talking about animals - that's all good (unless they're dogs, then it's bad).

Is stealing evil?

Well, of course. Unless the government is taking your money to help the less fortunate. Or, if you're a lawyer defending someone on trial for his life and using defacto extortion. Or, if the person you're stealing from stole from you first. Or, if it's in the form of online music, that's probably borderline.

Is lying evil?

Well, of course. Unless your fat girfriend asks you if her pants make her look fat.


Well... you get the idea...