A Tale of Two Different Disasters..... - Page 2 - Political Forum

Ceci · #11 (**permalink**) 10-29-2007, 02:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by joep182

I totally agree on this. Where we may differ is on what causes it. My suggestion is that it's society's capitalist institutions that send out messages (mainly through the media and juidicial system) that create it.

I can agree with you on that:

1) Because there is a mindset that is used to promote a type of society based on polemical and economic terms. That mindset benefits only a slim group of persons who have most of the power in society.

(that is, of course, "classicist" in its interpretation)

However, to make a "racial" interpretation on the social disparity, I would contend that the educational, legal, economic, political and social institutions in society use "stereotypes" as a way to promote one particular group racially, while all others are held below the standards of the first. As a result, societal law is governed to benefit one racial group above another due to those types of standards.

I believe (but I'm still reading up on this) this is because of social dominance theory, a theory that there are messages out there that promotes the superiority of one group so much so that they think that they are "better" racially (socially, economically, politically, etc.) than others and therefore society only privileges them and not anyone else.

This aspect cuts across the classes and involves everyone racially.

(This is not the entire explanation of the social dominance theory, but only a small kernel).

Quote:

They'll talk about immigrants stealing peoples jobs. They will tell you there are more black people in prison (but dont tell you that figure for the overall poor is probably higher). They will say there are more minorities on welfare but there are obviously a higher number of working class on it. This all makes poor white people hate/dislike/distrust black people, instead of realising their common bond.

That, I agree with, because the negative stereotypes are not only played in the media; there are some politicians (most notably the "Willie Horton" case that George H.W. Bush used when he was running for office) who use race in that way as a "wedge issue" in order to capitalized on people's prejudices.

After all, "welfare Queen" would not be as popular as a mindset among a certain "class" or "race" of folk if it weren't built upon their prejudices and classicism about people who are not like them.

Quote:

Again i think the same aregument can be applied to these people - i dont think they are somehow born naturally racist. It's just that many of them benefit from the capitalist system and so buy into its values more easily.

You're right. Not all middle class people are racist. But, the bourgeosie are most famous for exacting revolutionary changes (i.e. the French Revolution) because they had the most to lose from the poor as well as the rich. And in America, the middle class also is part and parcel of change so much so that it is they that exacts the changes because the only power that they truly have is one of votes. They pay an excess of taxes that the rich and the poor do not have to pay. They cannot get as many benefits as the rich or the poor. And Madison Avenue caters to them above anyone else in terms of advertising because it is their money that fuels the rich.

Yet, American values are placed upon the Middle Class as the level that everyone aspires to. When people think of the United States, they think white, Protestant, Middle Class people. God-fearing people. People with "individuality" and "moral value". People who "pull up themselves up by their own bootstraps".

They never consider the uglier side of this "aura" that is being projected and who it leaves out.

And for the rest of us? For people of color? We're considered "poor" if we don't embrace their values. And the rich? The rich are considered "above" us all.

Quote:

Likewise

It's always refreshing to speak to an American who doesn't call me a Stalinist

Thank you.

As for myself, I love to discuss ideas with vigor and passion. And especially, ideology has always fascinated me.

As for other Americans, you have to keep looking! We're out there!

Ceci · #12 (**permalink**) 10-29-2007, 03:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by neorealist

your A and B are the same thing. I don't think that is the reason why they moved back. I think they haven't moved back b/c these poor people don't have the money too...they can't even build their own place back. They simple dwell where ever the hand out is. I will say that it would very convenient for a political party if the caused a diaspora of the opponents voting base.

Reading back on my last remarks to you, I do think it is the same thing in a way. Sometimes, I write too fast for my thoughts.

Otherwise, I agree with you. But, the only thing I would add is that the history of Louisiana (and especially New Orleans) has always been predicated on race (from the Quadroon Balls to the Plantations and the "parishes"). And, money is not forthcoming partly because of that reason.

Especially pay attention to how quickly things began to move in San Diego. Now, do you think anyone would have anything to complain about if they moved half as quickly in New Orleans?

Things are still not off the ground there except for a few houses. Even the help organizations are running out of money in that neck of the woods.

Otherwise, in the "hills" of California, money is something the folks who have their houses burned down have. And as a result of their "importance", having money brings more power into the fold because people "care" if you have money.

(Now that, I will say, is a "classist" take on this)

But racially, I think this also has to do with who it is in trouble. I seriously doubt that any government agency is going to send rich (white) people into a stadium like the Superdome without food, water or air conditioning.

I also doubt that any agency is going to leave a rich (white) person to die on top of their roof without help for three days--especially if the media has a camera on them.

It comes down to what Henry Giroux had written about when discussing the issue of what happened during Hurricane Katrina: the politics of disposability.

What we were dealing with in NO was "disposable people" that did not reflect the "image" that society was trying to promote about America.

And the folks who had their houses burned up in the wildfires were considered "traditional" Americans. And therefore, they weren't treated as "disposable human beings".

I think there is a difference here.

FRYandBENDER · #13 (**permalink**) 10-29-2007, 09:50 AM

So would you rather have the federal government do a shitty job in California and risk people dying just because they did a shitty job in New Orleans? Just to what?..... be fair? After Katrina the federal government can't afford to not jump in ASAP. Personally, I don't see why the federal government should be involved with New Orleans or California. They are going to get criticized one way or the other. If they would have done nothing in California there would be someone bitching about their lack of action. Since they did get in there, I'm assuming though I haven't really kept up with the federal involvement in California, people are bitching about them doing a good job there, but not in New Orleans. Perhaps the local leaders in California are doing a better job of handling their shit than the retards in New Orleans. It still amazes me how little criticism Negan and Blanco get. But hey, lets blame the white man.

LessGovMrPrez · #14 (**permalink**) 10-29-2007, 10:38 AM

Well considering I worked Katrina, all I can say is you dont have a clue.

How about #1: In Katrina the evac center was inside the destruction zone (Superdome). In Cali it was outside it.

#2: In Katrina, the mayor of New Orleans said we would use the evac plan in place. They didnt use it. In fact we still have the same plan in pace today.

#3: Our Gov, who didnot run for re-election mind you, waited for 24 hours to allow the Feds to take control.

#4: Senator Landrieau said the buses were flooded before the hurricane hit. Explain that one.

#5: Class had nothing to do with it. The New Orleans mayor is black and a Democrat. They called for evac before the storm ever hit. People chose not to leave.

#6: In Cali, people didn't wait for government to do it for them. Here in Louisiana, a government run welfare state, they did and look what happened?

There is no similarity between the 2 events and shame on people for trying to compare them.

Ceci · #15 (**permalink**) 10-30-2007, 02:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LessGovMrPrez

Well considering I worked Katrina, all I can say is you dont have a clue.

I do have a clue, thank you.

However, I'd like to post the time-line of events of the first two days when it hit Louisiana to break this discussion wide open:

Quote:

Hurricane Katrina Timeline

Friday, August 26, 2005

At 1:00 AM EDT, maximum sustained winds had decreased to 70 mph and Katrina was again downgraded to a tropical storm. At 5:00 AM EDT, the eye of Hurricane Katrina was located just offshore of southwestern Florida over the Gulf of Mexico about 50 miles (80 km) north-northeast of Key West, Florida. Maximum sustained winds had again increased to 75 mph (121 km/h) and Katrina was upgraded again to a category 1 hurricane.

In early afternoon, the National Hurricane Center officially shifts the possible track of Katrina from the Florida Panhandle to the Mississippi/Louisiana coast. Governor Kathleen Babineaux Blanco declared a state of emergency for the state of Louisiana.[4] The declaration included activation of the state of Louisiana's emergency response and recovery program under the command of the director of the state office of Homeland Security and Emergency Preparedness to supply emergency support services. Following the declaration of a state of emergency, federal troops were deployed to Louisiana to coordinate the planning of operations with FEMA.[5]

So you said that she waited 24 hours?

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By 11:00 PM EDT, the National Hurricane Center predicted that Hurricane Katrina would strike the town of Buras-Triumph, Louisiana, 66 miles (106 km) southeast of New Orleans.[6]

Here, the Hurricane hits.

The time-line goes on....

Quote:

Saturday, August 27, 2005

By 5:00 AM EDT, Hurricane Katrina reached Category 3 intensity.

At 10:00 AM EDT, officials in St. Charles Parish, Louisiana, St. Tammany Parish, and Plaquemines Parish ordered a mandatory evacuation of all of their residents. Jefferson Parish and St. Bernard Parish ordered voluntary evacuations, recommending that all residents evacuate, particularly those living in lower areas. Jefferson Parish officials did declare a mandatory evacuation for the coastal areas of Grand Isle, Crown Point, Lafitte, and Barataria. Tolls were suspended on the Lake Pontchartrain Causeway as well as the Crescent City Connection, to speed up the evacuation process.

Hmmmmm.......What of the federal government? Still vacationing? Attending that Bird Flu conference? Buying Feregamo shoes and seeing Spamalot? Playing a guitar in California with a country star?

Quote:

At 5:00 PM EDT, New Orleans Mayor Ray Nagin announced a state of emergency and a called for a voluntary evacuation. He added that he would stick with the state's evacuation plan and not order a mandatory evacuation until 30 hours before the expected landfall. This would allow those residents in low-lying surrounding parishes to leave first and avoid gridlocked escape routes. However, he did recommend that residents of low-lying areas of the city, such as Algiers and the 9th Ward, get a head start. Nagin said the city would open the Superdome as a shelter of last resort for evacuees with special needs. He advised anyone planning to stay there to bring their own food, drinks and other comforts such as folding chairs. "No weapons, no large items, and bring small quanties of food for three or four days, to be safe," he said.[7]

Ray Nagin was doing his job. The federal government was not doing theirs. He even broadcasted on the radio talking how he needed help in New Orleans. And it still didn't come.

FEMA, the DHS or any other federal representative did not come until their political rears were on the line for letting such a large percentage of people suffer under drastic circumstances. The police and the firemen were under siege because some of them either fled or were affected themselves by the deluge.

I still say that there is a difference between the California wildfires and Hurricane Katrina: the rich (white) people suffering their trauma were quickly taken care of while the black folks (and the poor in general) suffered under a republican administration with a lack of response simply because they were "disposable".

And of course, what about all those other mayors from those Louisiana Towns who were also affected? Why aren't they blamed? And were you impressed with Pres. Bush's Flyby over New Orleans? What in the hell did he do? What did FEMA do? Why aren't you blaming the federal government?

And don't you worry. Trent Lott, who had his house flooded out by the storm, got his FEMA money first. I wonder what his views on race are?

An btw, San Diego was within the area of the disaster. The wildfires erupted all around the city down to the border of Mexico. So yes, Qualcomm qualifies as much as the Superdome does.

So, the only shame here is your own.

Have a nice day.

Ceci · #16 (**permalink**) 10-30-2007, 03:04 AM

And also, here is the most interesting part about who did what during Hurricane Katrina. This particular day is rather interesting. Compare that to what happened in Southern California:

Quote:

KATRINA TIMELINE

Wednesday, August 31

1:45AM CDT — FEMA REQUESTS AMBULANCES THAT DO NOT EXIST: “Almost 18 hours later, [FEMA] canceled the request for the ambulances because it turned out, as one FEMA employee put it, ‘the DOT doesn’t do ambulances.’” [Wall Street Journal]

11:20 AM CDT — FEMA STAFF WARNED BROWN THAT PEOPLE WERE DYING AT THE SUPERDOME: Three hours later, Brown’s press secretary wrote to colleagues complaining that Brown needed more time scheduled to eat at a restaurant: “He needs much more that (sic) 20 or 30 minutes. We now have traffic to encounter to go to and from a location of his choise (sic), followed by wait service from the restaurant staff, eating, etc. Thank you.” [AP]

NATIONAL GUARD TROOPS ARRIVE IN LOUSIANA, MISSISSIPPI, ALABAMA, AND FLORIDA: Troops arrive two days after they are requested. [Boston Globe]

superdome2.jpg TENS OF THOUSANDS TRAPPED IN SUPERDOME; CONDITIONS DETERIORATE: “A 2-year-old girl slept in a pool of urine. Crack vials littered a restroom. Blood stained the walls next to vending machines smashed by teenagers. ‘We pee on the floor. We are like animals,’ said Taffany Smith, 25, as she cradled her 3-week-old son, Terry. … By Wednesday, it had degenerated into horror. … At least two people, including a child, have been raped. At least three people have died, including one man who jumped 50 feet to his death, saying he had nothing left to live for. There is no sanitation. The stench is overwhelming.”" [Los Angeles Times, 9/1/05]

PRESIDENT BUSH FINALLY ORGANIZES TASK FORCE TO COORDINATE FEDERAL RESPONSE: Bush says on Tuesday he will “fly to Washington to begin work…with a task force that will coordinate the work of 14 federal agencies involved in the relief effort.” [New York Times, 8/31/05]

JEFFERSON PARISH EMERGENCY DIRECTOR SAYS FOOD AND WATER SUPPLY GONE: “Director Walter Maestri: FEMA and national agencies not delivering the help nearly as fast as it is needed.” [WWL-TV]

80,000 BELIEVED STRANDED IN NEW ORLEANS: Former Mayor Sidney Barthelemy “estimated 80,000 were trapped in the flooded city and urged President Bush to send more troops.” [Reuters]

3,000 STRANDED AT CONVENTION CENTER WITHOUT FOOD OR WATER: “With 3,000 or more evacuees stranded at the convention center — and with no apparent contingency plan or authority to deal with them — collecting a body was no one’s priority. … Some had been at the convention center since Tuesday morning but had received no food, water or instructions.” [Times-Picayune]

PUBLIC HEALTH EMERGENCY DECLARED FOR ENTIRE GULF COAST: “After a natural disaster, short and long-term medical problems can occur. Diseases like cholera, typhoid, hepatitis and mosquito-borne illnesses tend to break out under these conditions.” [WCBS-TV]

How long did it take for Pres. Bush, Sec. Chertoff and Sec. Brown to do something compared to Gov. Blanco and Mayor Nagin?

After all, we are all part of the the United States. It is the federal government's responsibility to take care of all people under its jurisdiction, is it not? We do vote for President, do we not? So we're supposed to ignore the government when it has failed a portion of the populace--especially when it has to do with race?

The ineptitude and cultural insensitivity of the government has to be discussed here. And that's why it is pertinent to compare the two events--especially on the level of race.

On that note, I think it is rather convenient to blame Mayor Nagin and Gov. Blanco for everything. Because if you blame both politicians (especially Democrats in a traditionally Democratic state), the stench of "not caring about Black folk" rolls right off the back of President Bush (especially with that comment from his mother, Mrs. George H.W. Bush).

After all, why isn't anyone hollering about Haley Barbour (Gov. of Mississippi) and Bob Riley (Gov. of Alabama)? Because they are Republicans? Shouldn't they be also placed under the microscope as well?

Grez · #17 (**permalink**) 11-02-2007, 03:02 AM

I'll just say this. Sometimes people just have to take responsibility for themselves and not wait to be bailed out. Only a small percentage of the people in Katrina have an excuse to not being able to get out, that would be the elderly and the disabled. There was plenty of warning in this case and many chose to stay. The primary responsibility is on the Local government to make this happen, they failed. The federal govt didn't have the greatest response either, I agree on that, but to put the primary blame on the federal govt is ludicrous.

If a huge tornado was spotted and told to be coming my way I'm sure as hell not waiting for someone to drag me to the basement. This goes for any natural disaster that there is fair warning of it happening. I'm going to do what it takes to get to safety, if I don't, well, I should be able to expect that things aren't going to be pretty if I survive.

As for poeple not putting the blame on Mississippi and Alabama governors, what exactly are you wanting to blame them for? The hurricane? They didn't have the same issues that New Orleans had. There wasn't thousands of people stranded in a building for days because people didn't evacuate.

MysticPhD · #18 (**permalink**) 11-04-2007, 09:59 PM

LessGovMrPrez facts and first hand experience are useless in debate with Ceci . . . she is like the carpenter who only has a hammer . . . everything looks like a nail. If blacks are involved in any negative circumstances it is the result of racism.

LessGovMrPrez · #19 (**permalink**) 11-05-2007, 11:24 AM

Ceci, the Governor set in motion the STATE Emergency Preparedness, not the Feds. Get your facts straight.

Ray Nagin, Gov. Blanco, and Pres. Bush all met on an airplane to discuss the transfer over of everything to the Feds. Blanco said she would let him know in 24 hours to which Nagin went straight to the media cussing angrily b/d he wanted help in N.O. Instead the Gov. wanted to wait.

You must understand that a state has control over such things. Until the state sign over control to the Feds, it is a state run disaster event. The National Guard is state controlled until it is signed over to the Feds as well.

MikeT · #20 (**permalink**) 11-05-2007, 12:13 PM

The SuperDome was the designated shelter to withstand a hurricane--and it did. Everything worked there, in regards to the hurricane, exactly as it was supposed to.

Most people survived the hurricane and the plans in place worked as they were supposed to.

No one was prepared for a massive hurricane followed by a massive flood.

Maybe they should have been--but hindsight is always 20/20.

Either way, there is no arguing or debating if the federal government fell down on the job--that's a widely known, fully evidenced, and fully admitted to fact by the government itself:

"Bush apologizes for Katrina failings"
Bush apologizes for Katrina failings | Chron.com - Houston Chronicle

There's plenty of blame to go around, plenty of criticisms to be offered at every level of government. One does not negate the other.

Bush, FEMA, Blanco, Nagin--none of them are completely innocent of wrong-doing.

Blame Bush and FEMA for their failures, but be accurate.

Blame Nagin and Blanco for their failures, but be accurate.

And finally: Did race or class play any role in the response to either of these disasters?

I would be hard put to think of ANYTHING that race and class discrimination weren't an issue in this country.

So in that regard, I say: Yes.