My brain is extremely tired from studying and completing an economic midterm all while righting a paper and going to a 4 hour long class after it all (I’m currently in the class right now) so actual thorough comments will have to wait until tomorrow (i.e. commenting to Lock9-05’s surprisingly civil reply to my post). But for now, after reading the past 4 pages of posts that I’ve missed I can’t help but comment on the little things.

I would recommend going with something more along the lines of alcohol, cigarettes or pornography to aid your argument. Pornography being the best example for it is proven in psychological studies to alter judgment (this was stated in my psychology text book back when I was a freshman) and it influences negative self-image and self worth.

There’s very little disagreement here. I don’t think drug dealers help society at all. Therefore, I don’t think they deserve to make as much money as they can with the current system, i.e. the profit paradox. Though if it were legal and that profit paradox were gone, that system of illegal drug trade (concerning marijuana) will be abandoned by those who partake in the system today. Those 7 million dealers that Counterpointing estimated (or however many you think their are) would have to get real jobs because they’d not be able to compete in the market by themselves. And the crime that goes along with the illegal drug trade, such as Gorge Jung’s airplane theft for example, or gang drug-selling territory will disappear as well. …IMO
Also, I think it’s possible that less people would be pressuring others to try marijuana if it were legal because drug dealers wouldn’t be trying to make a buck off of it.

In other words, it’s habit forming.

I’d say that your analysis is accurate. But like the anti-marijuana advocates have said before, personal stories don’t matter to them. This is unfortunate for it is us who have hands on experience in this subject. I think the first post I ever made on this thread was how I went to ‘cannafest’ in Seattle Washington. I described how over 7000+ people were all smoking pot and nobody started going crazy committing crimes or running their mouth at the cops that were there too. Everyone was stoned and civil. The cops just watched and laughed while smoking their cigars. Some stoners even walked up to the cops ask how it was going.

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I like your avatar. You are a big tool fan aren't you?

Actually, I’m a big Alex Gray fan. He is the best artist (painter) of our day. My last avatar was an Alex Gray painting too.

He graduated at Harvard medical school with a PHD in anatomy and some other medical stuff. He decided he didn’t want to be a doctor his whole life so he’s a full time artist. I am somewhat of a artist myself. Funny that you mention it in this thread because he is a drug user and talks about it on his sight.
Alex Grey

…But yes I am a Tool fan as well.

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Your perception of what is "civil" and what is not is apparently very flawed, then. I respond to debaters the way they respond to me. I've been going through your posts from the very first time you ever posted on this forum, and I can't help but notice that your posts have thankfully mellowed out from one-liner (often-times border-line insults) to now, when you're able to debate the issue, rather than the poster. For instance:

You wanna talk about civility...? That was the first ever post you made directly addressed to me or any of my arguments. Not only that, but here's another:

Same post. That was the first time you even addressed me. So don't even go off on me about being "civil," Seer. It doesn't work, like that. What's that one word?... You know, that word that's used to describe the behavior or conduct of someone who is guilty of what they're criticizing the other party of... I think it starts with an "H..." Hmmm, if you remember what that word is, feel free to jump on in there and help me out.

I would recommend sticking to the topic, which is illegal recreational marijuana. We've had so many seemingly desperate attempts at topic diversions/digressions now, and it really doesn't say much about the pro-legalization side of this debate. Pornography doesn't physically manipulate brain chemistry. Pornography has obviously not proven to be nearly as big of an issue as recreational drugs, hence why there's such a huge--albeit unnecessary--uproar about society's completely reasonable decision to criminalize them.

Really? THEN DON'T BUY DRUGS FROM THEM! Hah! Are you kidding me? Is that the argument there? You're blaming society for something that's clearly caused by the idiotic, selfish, and destructive persistence of users. Society discourages drug use, and at the same time, society also discourages the purchase of illegal drugs--legal consequences. If people are too stupid or too apathetic to put 2 and 2 together, they get kicked in the ass with fines, jail time, etc. It's no different with things like traffic violations. If you break reasonable laws, you pay the consequences.

I was pulled over once for not coming to a complete stop before turning right on red. It was a very minor offense, but I wasn't about to start bitching about "oh tax dollars are going to waste because this cop is wasting his time on such a petty issue, arggh, the system fails again." No, when the officer asked me what I thought he should do about it, I told him "I broke the law, it's not up to me anymore." I got off with a warning.

I know of at least one other person in this forum who could personally--through an experience--attest to that same idea of citizen driver responsibility (which applies to all aspects of the law as well)--I won't name that person just in case they don't want to become involved with this discussion.


If those idiotic selfish reject users would get lives and understand the consequences for their actions--aka stop defying a completely logical/reasonable law--then drug dealers would be out of business also. Society will not yield to pathetic petty criminals. Users have no bargaining chip here. They want something from society--legalization--yet they continue to outright defy society's laws--contributing to dealer business and at the same time--crime rate.


Dealers would find it next to impossible to sell drugs to people who didn't want them or who weren't willing to take the risk and sacrifice the safety and health of those around them to simply get that idiotic selfish high that results from said drugs. Once again, Counterpointing the choice lies with the users. It's up to them, and since they're obviously too incompetent to make the right, safe, logical choice, society must fulfill its moral and legal obligation to preserve the safety and well-being of those law-abiding citizens around the selfish users.


I've got plenty of personal stories about marijuana. I could tell you about how marijuana use in my family pretty much ruined my childhood. I could tell you about how I grew up in a neighborhood where practically every kid over the age of about 7 was involved with one gang or another were prevalent and the school system was a mess due to drugs like marijuana. I could tell about you how my brother essentially raised me on his own, and then nearly killed himself on such substances. I could tell you about how I pulled through all that "disease of addiction" shit, and never once got myself addicted to any of those worthless vile and disgusting indulgences--even though I had all the "predispositions" for it. I could tell you all that, hell, I could write a damn book about it. But I won't, because this is a debate. It's not the "tell me a story from your life" hour, it's a prove what you're saying or shut up debate.

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"Ask not what your country can do for you; ask what you can do for your country."
-John F. Kennedy

"Education begins the gentleman, but reading, good company and reflection must finish him."
-John Locke

"What worries you, masters you."
-John Locke

I hope I can amend our personal confrontation.

Those things that I said on Decrim Marijuana part 2 (I think,) were rude and I’m sorry. I should have just kept it to myself. I normally wouldn’t say something like that but I was using the words of a previous poster. Well… there is no excuse really. My bad. I'm sorry. I’ll treat you and your opinion with more respect.

We cool now? …ya know, besides the whole not agreeing thing?

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Just to comment on your 'personal stories' remark. When you are able to give anecdotal evidence about a phenomenon that is unique and has not been studied, even at academic level it is acceptable to point out the phenomenon and to ask for permission to conduct research. If I was 30 years younger with the knowledge that I now have of how the substance is used here, I would conduct that research - it would be very interesting to analyse but unfortunately all I can do is relate my observations in the hope that some younger and enterprising person will be prepared to come out and look at the problem of cannabis use by our laborers, therefore my personal anecdotes are indeed of some value. Anyway this is not a formal debate, I am sure that not many of the people reading these threads are actually that keen to delve into the research that is quoted here. It is easy enough to set up a website, fill it with all sorts of garbage and claim that it is real.

Sure, I understand we all say things we regret--or at least when thinking back, we would not have said them. It's okay, no need to worry about it, I just wanted to make sure that we were both aware that we've probably been equally at fault for that sort of thing throughout the debate. No hard feelings.

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"Ask not what your country can do for you; ask what you can do for your country."
-John F. Kennedy

"Education begins the gentleman, but reading, good company and reflection must finish him."
-John Locke

"What worries you, masters you."
-John Locke

Well yeah, but it's fairly obvious which sources are qualified and which sources aren't. If I went and quoted Mr. Mackie from the South Park website ("drugs are bad, mmmkay...?") genuinely trying to use it as an argument, I think most people would probably either conclude that I was out of my mind or that the source was bullshit and couldn't be acknowledged in the debate itself.

It's a matter of credibility, and there are credible sources for both sides, it's simply a matter of finding them, analyzing them, and explaining/utilizing them to convey your position. While an anecdote is fine and good, it doesn't do much in terms of the actual debate, then it's simply a discussion. I think it's great to use a personal story/anecdote to emphasize an argument/point. But that's all you can hope to accomplish. You can't actually prove anything by telling us about your own experience. A single individual's experience does not constitute fact in a debate that covers a national issue. That's the idea behind this little side debate about the relevancy or lack thereof--in certain scenarios--of personal experience in debate.

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"Ask not what your country can do for you; ask what you can do for your country."
-John F. Kennedy

"Education begins the gentleman, but reading, good company and reflection must finish him."
-John Locke

"What worries you, masters you."
-John Locke

While I have only read back through this thread and not the previous ones on the topic this is what I have found.

Those posting against legalization have cited some studies and have made summaries far beyond what the extracts actually say. For example, when I read the extract on withdrawal symptoms it was based upon (12) individuals which is a statistically invalid sample and while the extract stated it "may suggest" some have taken that statement as an absolute. I read the extract on "aggressive behavior" after discontinuing marijuana usage but the extract doesn't imply any negative aggressive behavior. We must accept that aggressive behavior itself is neither a positive or a negative trait. For those trying to close a business deal aggressive behavior could be considered a positive behavior whereas a man beating his wife would be considered a negative behavior. The study does not address whether the aggression is manifesting itself in either a positive or negative action. Of course there is the study on psychotic behavior after marijuana use but fails to address the underlying psychological or physicalogical profiles of the individuals unrelated to marijuana usage. All in all the studies do not provide any linkage of marijuana with cause and effect.

What we do have are statements that marijuana usage is a "mindless self-indulgence" which is certainly the opinion of the writer. Opinions are fine but they are just that, opinions. We also have statements related to personal experiences where a person blames marijuana for family problems when they grew up. Of course people often look for a scapegoat in such situations and whether marijuana usage had anything whatsoever to do with the psychological problems in this person's family is highly doubtful.

But let us cut to the chase. Marijuana is not for everyone. The wonderful thing about marijuana is that those that don't enjoy invariably stop using it. There are far more people that have smoked marijuana and stopped than those that continue to use it long term for whatever reason.

Is it a self-indulgence? Of course it is. So is eating chocolate cake. In fact, most of life's enjoyments are related to self-indulgence. It is fundamentally no different that drinking a fine wine or enjoying fine art. We don't really need either but how much less would life be without a good glass of wine or a Picasso painting?

The undeniable fact is that tens of millions of people in the US enjoy the effects of marijuana. This includes highly repected professionals and leaders in our nation. Their "mindless self-indulgence" has benefited society and yet they face criminal penalties, including jail, for their actions based upon the generally misinformed "opinions" of others.

The fact is that a person should be allowed to do whatever they choose to do so long as it doesn't infringe upon the rights or property of others. Neither the government nor the opinions of others should dictate what the individual can do so long as their actions do not infringe upon others in society. Marijuana usage certainly falls into this catagory. So long as the individual does not violate the rights of others then there is no justification for marijuana being illegal.

Can you show us a single person that has "benefited society" because of their use of marijuana? Any one, who if they we're high, whouldn't have helped the world in the way that they did. Studies don't have tens of thousands of people, because you can't go get tens of thousands of people to study them while high like you can with eatting McDonalds or smoking. Many studies only involve a dozen or so people, but they are still done under a controled enviroment so the results can be taken to be somewhat accuate as to the effects. If half of the 12 people experiense the same side effects, there is a strong chance that it is caused by smoking pot.