Decrim of Marijuana (part 4) - Page 4 - Political Forum

Locke9-05 · 10-24-2007, 03:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Agrippina

I know I've told you about the use of cannabis here where I live. I just want to make the point again about how the people here have been using the wild product that grows here naturally since they first came here about 600 to 700 years ago. The authorities have tried unsuccessfully to stop it and selling it is still a crime but when something grows wild, and is indigeneous to the region, it is very difficult to contain the growth of it.
The point I want to make is that the employers here say that they allow the use of it because it makes the workers more relaxed, they don't have as many fights among the workers if they let them use it and it also keeps them focussed on what would otherwise be extremely tedious work (try cutting sugar cane all day) The problems arise when they mix it with alcohol, which is another huge problem here. It would be interesting to see a study conducted here between the people who use it and the people who don't. I think that would give a far more valid picture than one taken of people you use it socially or recreationally. The use of it here is like cigarettes, in the same way that people used to grow tobacco and roll their own cigarettes, men here crush their own grass that grows everywhere here and smoke it as much as they would a cigarette, there's no sitting with a drink and passing a joint between two fingers as you see it done in the movies, a guy will roll his joint lick the paper to seal it, light it and hang it in his lips then get on with his job. The next time he stops for a cup of tea or his lunch or something, he'll start another. Just like you would with a cigarette. And there's no crazy people running around here, just nice, mellow, friendly chilled out people.

Yes, but there's one factor that makes all the difference in the world, Agg--we talked about this mostly in relation to the difference in crime rates when comparing the US, the Netherlands, and Japan--and that's culture. South African culture is so much different than American culture, that's why it's different over there. That's why it would be so much different over here.

That's why South Africa is so much different from the Netherlands, for instance--where the crime rate peaked after marijuana was legalized--culture.

Agrippina · 10-24-2007, 04:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Locke9-05

Yes, but there's one factor that makes all the difference in the world, Agg--we talked about this mostly in relation to the difference in crime rates when comparing the US, the Netherlands, and Japan--and that's culture. South African culture is so much different than American culture, that's why it's different over there. That's why it would be so much different over here.

That's why South Africa is so much different from the Netherlands, for instance--where the crime rate peaked after marijuana was legalized--culture.

But despite the culture, you are writing now about the negative reactions to its use, I'm
saying that my observation is that it is a factor in the maintaining of peace in this very volatile province where two men working alongside each other could lift their machetes while cutting cane and kill each other simply because one believes women should be allowed to were trousers and the other doesn't. They are an extremely aggressive people the Zulus, and very proud of their aggression and they hate their nearest neighbors, the Xhosas. I heard a story the other day that our local home affairs office refused to change the address of a local worker because he was born in Xhosa territory, told him to go home. This is of course illegal but nevertheless the antipathy is very strong. That kind of fight could start a tribal war but they let it go because they are chilled out on drugs most of the time.
The drug use is fairly universal among people in the 20 - 40 range its only the older ones who either stop using it or the young ones who haven't started. Men and women both, smoke it like cigarettes. So if the effects cause the insanity your tests claim, it would be interesting to see what they would make of this place.

Locke9-05 · 10-24-2007, 06:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Agrippina

But despite the culture, you are writing now about the negative reactions to its use, I'm
saying that my observation is that it is a factor in the maintaining of peace in this very volatile province where two men working alongside each other could lift their machetes while cutting cane and kill each other simply because one believes women should be allowed to were trousers and the other doesn't. They are an extremely aggressive people the Zulus, and very proud of their aggression and they hate their nearest neighbors, the Xhosas. I heard a story the other day that our local home affairs office refused to change the address of a local worker because he was born in Xhosa territory, told him to go home. This is of course illegal but nevertheless the antipathy is very strong. That kind of fight could start a tribal war but they let it go because they are chilled out on drugs most of the time.
The drug use is fairly universal among people in the 20 - 40 range its only the older ones who either stop using it or the young ones who haven't started. Men and women both, smoke it like cigarettes. So if the effects cause the insanity your tests claim, it would be interesting to see what they would make of this place.

That's a very isolated scenario and once again it's based on a very very specific personal experience/cultural aspect of the region in which you live. The statistics show otherwise here in the States, and needless to say, American culture here in the States is much different than culture in South Africa. It plays a much more significant part in this sort of issue than most people might think.

Agrippina · 10-24-2007, 06:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Locke9-05

That's a very isolated scenario and once again it's based on a very very specific personal experience/cultural aspect of the region in which you live. The statistics show otherwise here in the States, and needless to say, American culture here in the States is much different than culture in South Africa. It plays a much more significant part in this sort of issue than most people might think.

It would be interesting to see a study done on this phenomenon though, don't you think.
During the time before white people were here, they used other herbs and in particular a mushroom that made them feel invincible. Shaka used to make his soldiers eat these mushrooms before a battle, they were totally fearless and would obey any command he gave them. I can't find out what it was but I suspect that drugs play a large role in the criminality that is part of SA society.

Oregon Elephant · 10-24-2007, 02:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Agrippina

saying that my observation is that it is a factor in the maintaining of peace in this very volatile province where two men working alongside each other could lift their machetes while cutting cane and kill each other simply because one believes women should be allowed to were trousers and the other doesn't. They are an extremely aggressive people the Zulus, and very proud of their aggression and they hate their nearest neighbors, the Xhosas. I heard a story the other day that our local home affairs office refused to change the address of a local worker because he was born in Xhosa territory, told him to go home. This is of course illegal but nevertheless the antipathy is very strong. That kind of fight could start a tribal war but they let it go because they are chilled out on drugs most of the time.

Do you know that if they we're on drugs, a tribal war would start? Or in the case of the two men with machetes can work side by side because of the drug and if the drug wasn't there, they would kill each other?

Agrippina · 10-24-2007, 03:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oregon Elephant

Do you know that if they we're on drugs, a tribal war would start? Or in the case of the two men with machetes can work side by side because of the drug and if the drug wasn't there, they would kill each other?

Let me put it this way. During the Apartheid years, the police used to take out tons of the stuff from the rural areas of particularly this province and the Eastern Cape (the one next to us). We used to have them on tv all the time burning tons of the stuff.
They were extremely strict about it and especially with black people. But then they were strict with black people for not having their passbooks stamped. But I lived my whole life without being aware that there was even a slight problem with it here. During this time too there were really terrible mini wars fought between factions in this provinces rural areas. Take the trouble to look at the Google Earth map of South Africa to see how the land along the coast has towns and villages but the inland is mostly farms and rural communities.
Since 1994 and the new dispensation a lot of the fighting is gone, it still happens, families being out for the most inane reasons, but nothing like those days. The point I'm making is the the Zulu and Xhosa are traditionally the most aggressive of all the indigeneous South African people, the men are extremely patriarchal and will actually strip one of their women naked and beat her in the street for wearing jeans, so believe me if two of these guys get into a fight and they happen to be working in the cane field (the cane is chopped by hand), they will kill each other.

Look at this website for info on the province where I live:

Township & Cultural Tourism in the Kingdom of the Zulu

And here's the Google map for the coastline if you switch to satellite and go close up you can actually see how densely populated the coastline is.

Google Maps

If you are really interested in the history of the country, which I am not going to repeat here you can see it in a thread I created especially for that purpose: Look under Africa: The History of Africa

Oregon Elephant · 10-24-2007, 03:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Agrippina

Let me put it this way. During the Apartheid years, the police used to take out tons of the stuff from the rural areas of particularly this province and the Eastern Cape (the one next to us). We used to have them on tv all the time burning tons of the stuff.
They were extremely strict about it and especially with black people. But then they were strict with black people for not having their passbooks stamped. But I lived my whole life without being aware that there was even a slight problem with it here. During this time too there were really terrible mini wars fought between factions in this provinces rural areas. Take the trouble to look at the Google Earth map of South Africa to see how the land along the coast has towns and villages but the inland is mostly farms and rural communities.
Since 1994 and the new dispensation a lot of the fighting is gone, it still happens, families being out for the most inane reasons, but nothing like those days. The point I'm making is the the Zulu and Xhosa are traditionally the most aggressive of all the indigeneous South African people, the men are extremely patriarchal and will actually strip one of their women naked and beat her in the street for wearing jeans, so believe me if two of these guys get into a fight and they happen to be working in the cane field (the cane is chopped by hand), they will kill each other.

Look at this website for info on the province where I live:

Township & Cultural Tourism in the Kingdom of the Zulu

And here's the Google map for the coastline if you switch to satellite and go close up you can actually see how densely populated the coastline is.

Google Maps

If you are really interested in the history of the country, which I am not going to repeat here you can see it in a thread I created especially for that purpose: Look under Africa: The History of Africa

I wonder if the cops liked to sit downwind from the brun pile?

I'm now wondering if it is the pot, or the new government that allows them to be more tollerant of each other, surely they're not high all day long every day (some might be). I'm not trying to say that the pot hasn't helped, because I'm sure it has, but I believe there must be more than just this one thing that drove the change.

Agrippina · 10-24-2007, 04:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oregon Elephant

I wonder if the cops liked to sit downwind from the brun pile?

I'm now wondering if it is the pot, or the new government that allows them to be more tollerant of each other, surely they're not high all day long every day (some might be). I'm not trying to say that the pot hasn't helped, because I'm sure it has, but I believe there must be more than just this one thing that drove the change.

They are high all day long every day. The South park episode with the towel that's high and the red eyes, it's a chronic condition here. If you meet a guy and he has red eyes, that's it. But it's only really among the workers. The westernized middle class types that live in the cities, I dunno if they do it recreationally but the rural ones, the one who work as labourers, they're high all day, carry their grass around in Boxer tobacco pouches and they are crazy for newspaper. We don't recycle newspaper here, it gets turned into joints. The pot helps, they are really chilled out. I watched them dig our pool, by hand with shovels, and man can a guy swing a shovel when he's high, just on and on in the hot humid sun for two to three hours with a joint hanging out of his mouth. When all the work was done after we first moved here, I had a crop of mj growing all over the garden. I was terrified the cops would come for me so I used to walk around pulling out the little plants, luckily they don't come back if you get the plant out. When our garden service comes, you can actually get high on the smell.
Look I think that the attitude is better now that the repression is gone but they are still very aggressive, I would never pick a fight with a Zulu. Look at the website, read a bit about them. I know it sounds like the white madam talking about the servants, but it is so different out here with the rural people, they don't care too much about education it is such a battle to get them to stay in school, but by the time they are 12 they are using, so the interest in school disappears, they'll stay in grade 7 until they're 16 and then leave school to work as a laborer. It's going to take a generation to get a change but if we take away the labourers then the industry will die, because apparently cane has to be cut by hand. I don't know why, I'll try to find out.

Oregon Elephant · 10-24-2007, 04:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Agrippina

They are high all day long every day. The South park episode with the towel that's high and the red eyes, it's a chronic condition here. If you meet a guy and he has red eyes, that's it. But it's only really among the workers. The westernized middle class types that live in the cities, I dunno if they do it recreationally but the rural ones, the one who work as labourers, they're high all day, carry their grass around in Boxer tobacco pouches and they are crazy for newspaper. We don't recycle newspaper here, it gets turned into joints. The pot helps, they are really chilled out. I watched them dig our pool, by hand with shovels, and man can a guy swing a shovel when he's high, just on and on in the hot humid sun for two to three hours with a joint hanging out of his mouth. When all the work was done after we first moved here, I had a crop of mj growing all over the garden. I was terrified the cops would come for me so I used to walk around pulling out the little plants, luckily they don't come back if you get the plant out. When our garden service comes, you can actually get high on the smell.
Look I think that the attitude is better now that the repression is gone but they are still very aggressive, I would never pick a fight with a Zulu. Look at the website, read a bit about them. I know it sounds like the white madam talking about the servants, but it is so different out here with the rural people, they don't care too much about education it is such a battle to get them to stay in school, but by the time they are 12 they are using, so the interest in school disappears, they'll stay in grade 7 until they're 16 and then leave school to work as a laborer. It's going to take a generation to get a change but if we take away the labourers then the industry will die, because apparently cane has to be cut by hand. I don't know why, I'll try to find out.

Well, I think that there is a large difference between your culture and the US culture. And each culture has it's own needs and what may be best for one culture may not be best for the other, and I believe that applies between our two cultures. If I were in charge of your nation, I wouldn't consider trying to take away the marijuana from the workers and labourers, for it strongly seems to greatly help ease the tension between the two groups to save lives. But I would work hard to keep it away from the kids, becuase, like you said, "...they don't care too much about education it is such a battle to get them to stay in school, but by the time they are 12 they are using, so the interest in school disappears, they'll stay in grade 7 until they're 16 and then leave school to work as a laborer."

Agrippina · 10-24-2007, 04:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oregon Elephant

Well, I think that there is a large difference between your culture and the US culture. And each culture has it's own needs and what may be best for one culture may not be best for the other, and I believe that applies between our two cultures. If I were in charge of your nation, I wouldn't consider trying to take away the marijuana from the workers and labourers, for it strongly seems to greatly help ease the tension between the two groups to save lives. But I would work hard to keep it away from the kids, becuase, like you said, "...they don't care too much about education it is such a battle to get them to stay in school, but by the time they are 12 they are using, so the interest in school disappears, they'll stay in grade 7 until they're 16 and then leave school to work as a laborer."

Oh we do. The drive to keep kids in school is really serious but the parents want the money the kids can earn and you can imagine with the culture of absent fathers being bred into them over 300 years, they make babies and leave. So you have mothers without husbands (in the rural areas they pay a bride price (called lobola) very few real marriages) so there are no legal ties, they push off start another family somewhere else. The women bring up the kids to the point where they can earn and then they take them out of school. My housekeepers daughter was in grade 6, and 16 when she got pregnant, she is now 18 and living with the father who is also 18 and neither are working, they depend on his family for food. They don't get the value of education, they only want enough so they can can understand the soaps on tv. That's all they watch, the black soap operas and game shows, they're not interested in the deep stuff. So there are enormous social problems. It's not as bad in the cities where there is a middle-class of black person developing but here with the rural types their attitude is 100 years behind that of thie families who live in the cities.
My housekeeper's sister lives in Durban. Her husband (proper husband) died last year. She has a house has a job looking after frail old people and her kids go to school. Her brother owns a house near the local golf course, she owns one there too but she won't live there because she doesn't like her brother so she lives in a shack with her layabout son. Her brother he has a good job and his kids go to school, but not my friend she's very strange and her son is a total mj fiend. He's always in fights because when he earns money he buys alcohol and gets drunk and then into fights. We took her to lunch last week, it was her birthday, first time she's ever been in a restaurant she was so sweet about it, asked when she could go again. They are mostly nice people, and the situation with school is improving but it's going to take time.