MikeT

What portion of that did the federal government see in profit? (As opposed to what private citizens, companies, etc. gain in profit.)

What part is a direct result of the federal government? (As opposed to what private citizens, companies, etc. gained in profit.)

If we're talking about the federal government paying reparations for for federal wrong-doing, then we have to define exactly what percentage is their fault, and the fault of others, then how much they gained in profit from that fault.

When you stack up the laws, policies, and rules the federal government enacted/created, etc. during slavery (and I would like to take this further into segregation) and those that individual states/private citizens enacted, what is the percentage?

40%? 30%? 20%?

Whatever the number, and however much the profit the federal government gained from slavery (and in my druthers, segregation) should be the amount of the monetary reparations.

Now, the government can do like we do with other awards in this country, like the lottery--though I hate to use that parallel because of a certain derogatory statement made earlier in these threads--a set amount over a period of time for the full amount, or a percentage in a lump-sum payout.

Either way is feasible and if done correctly, if the whole issue is handled correctly, then it could have very positive effects to finally, once and for all, put slavery (and in my druthers, segregation) behind us so that we might start the hard work of eradicting the last vestiges of it from our society.

BellaDonna

No, it's a lie. You're making false accusations. They are not true until you can prove them. Show me your proof that I have made statements that show contempt for poor black people and show me my dishonest statements and stances.

Until you show proof, it's all just smoke.

Now either prove your accusations or leave it behind and move on.

Where is the money for reparations going to come from?

BellaDonna

Why does that matter? If this is reparations for the wrong-doing (allowing slavery to happen and segregation to blossom), why does it matter how much their profits were?

The work the slaves did was free. The government didn't pay anything so it was all profit, whether it went to the government or to the people. The entire amount was profit.

Everyone in this country has profited from this free labor.

Why aren't we going after the private citizens, too? They're as guilty as the government is. They let it happen. They encouraged it! They owned us and beat us. Why are they getting off the hook?

I have no idea what the percentage is, but it's probably a lot bigger than 40%.

Paid to whom?

What chance do you think there is of this issue being handled correctly? I'm sorry but this is a dream. If you think reparations can be given to a segment of society and the rest of the people (not bigots, just people who disagree with it) are just going to let it happen and somehow the vestiges of segregation will disappear, you are dreaming. Sorry but I don't know any other way to say it.

Ceci

Like you have?

Well, you've thrown down the gauntlet. I'll be happy to oblige:

You said:

They're not?

You don't? Then how could you be pro or con?

Really? Well, how could that be? After all, the people on the pro-reparations side did not say that reparations were to solve racism. It was to provide closure through finally making an appropriate apology to the descendants of slaves and finally acknowledging that the federal government (and the corporate infrastructure) were complicit in human trafficking and illegal revenues from forced labor, abuse and discrimination.

I bet you can't. What is worse is that you acknowledge that this time in history is wrong, yet you "still can't see" the repercussions of the "darkest, ugliest stain on American history" has had on Black people today. I mean, you say you do, but truly, do you--especially if "you haven't really thought about reparations" before this thread?

Instead, you want to "live with" systemic racism and not complain. And, of course, you want to absolve yourself by "being free". Yes, you've "won", but what truly have you gained?

But, I especially love this little nugget:

So you're saying that it might have been beneficial that the government participated in human trafficking and the abuse of people? You're also saying that it might have had a positive effect on history?

And to top off this atrocious statement, you go back and continue the diatribe of "You owe me", the constant stereotype that people think about when it comes to Black folks. You continue to play into that stereotype by also speaking as if that's the only thing that African-Americans can do.

That's what I mean about how one can "sell out" others of their ilk if they are given a proper platform....


As for who fired the first salvo, this is a response between Mike and yourself about what you said to me before I even addressed you:

I thank you, Mike, for speaking up. Yes, I'm human in the way that I can get cantankerous and terse at times, but never do I do unprovoked attacks coming out of nowhere. That belongs to Bella Donna.

And, suffice it to say, it isn't all smoke now, is it? BellaDonna is definitely contradictory and duplicitious in her statements.

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MikeT

It matters because federal reparations are paid for federal wrong-doing, not for the wrong-doing of the states or its people.

You don't sue the federal government if the city of Detroit illegally confiscates your house. You sue the city. Even if that case is heard in a federal court, and the city is found guilty--the city pays--not the federal government.

Did that help you understand? If not, let me know and I'll try to help clarify.

Right--but how much of that profit went to the federal government directly, and as a direct result of the federal governments actions? (Such as in unequal pay of black men in the military, as just one example of how the federal government profited.)

Yes. In one way or another. Federal reparations doesn't cover that, however.

When the Japanese were afforded their reparations, it was federal wrong-doing and the damage that inflicted on them. It didn't include monies from private citizens that profitted off of paying them less, or not paying them at all for the labor they had performed for those private citizens.

It did included monetary awards for the loss of income the Japanese suffered because of the direct actions the federal government had taken. Which in the case of historically in our federal government, could be extrapolated from the direct racial discrimination of the United States Employment Agency.

I never said they were off the hook. I have always stated that federal reparations don't target private citizens and never have. I have always argued that's a matter for civil courts.

You're sounding a bit sarcastic here and I'm not sure why.

Well, in my druthers, we reparations would be paid for slavery and segregation and they would be paid to anyone's who's grandparents were American citizens. (As I have stated time and again.)

Who said the vestiges of segregation would disappear just because reparations are paid? I didn't. I know I didn't. I have been very detailed in saying that over and over again.

Just like the war in Iraq was "sold" to the American people, I think the need to erase systemic racism from our society needs to be "sold" to the American people. That's what I mean when I say that this has to be handled correctly.

If someone isn't a bigot, if they are not racist, and they know what blacks have gone through in this country (just like those who knew what happened to the Native Americans and the Japanese) they will be open to listening to the President (as that's where this would come from) explain the federal wrong doing of our government thoughout slavery and segregation, explain the reason for monetary reparations, and then explain how the amount was decided on--based on that federal wrong doing.

They will listen to all of that without becoming so enraged and whacked out crazy with anger that they run into streets to riot and start lynching black people again.

Because if they truly aren't bigotted, and no matter what they think about reparations, then they will hold the federal government accountable and not black people.

FRYandBENDER

Jesus Ceci, You should be an attorney.

I'd hire you.

__________________
Neither am I the means to any end others may wish to accomplish. I am not a tool for their use. I am not a servant of their needs. I am not a bandage for their wounds. I am not a sacrifice on their altars. ... I owe nothing to my brothers, nor do I gather debts from them. I ask no one to live for me, nor do I live for others. I covet no mans soul, nor is my soul theirs to covet.

Ayn Rand, Anthem.

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iTaliAN_ICe

How do you guys want to get the money for these reparations? Will they be paid by white Americans? If so, it'll cost ~$174,755.16 (174,755.161) per family of white people. Even if paid over time, don't you think that's a bit much?


This is based on the following assumptions:

1. The population of the U.S. is exactly 302,500,000.

2. "White" excludes Hispanic Americans who identified themselves as white, as well as Americans of Arabic, Iranian, and Central Asian descent.

3.White people constitute exactly 68.1% of the population (206,002,500).

4. The cost of reparations would be exactly 12 trillion dollars, and reparations would be paid by American taxpayers who are "white" as defined above.

5. There are 68,667,500 families (of 3* people each) of American white people in the country.

*The average size of American white families according to the 2000 US Census.

--
I'd be very surprised if I didn't make a huge mathematical mistake, so feel free to check my numbers.

MikeT

I think I already covered that in my last two responses to Bella.

No. By the federal government.

Yes. I do. That's not what I'm advocating.

All right.

It is? How did you come by that figure? If it's what a magazine article extrapolated was the lost wages of black slave labor--then it's not the measure of reparations--merely the number an article concluded was how much black slaves weren't paid.

I went through what reparations are paid for in my posts to Bella. If you'd like to read those and directly respond to my statements, then I'll be happy to answer your questions on that.

I don't know if it's your math that's off so much as what you think the federal government pays reparations for.

They don't pay reparations to you if your employer refuses to pay you money that you've earned.

They pay you reparations if the federal government refuses to pay you money you've earned.

The Libertarian

No living white men are guilty of slavery. Reparations is racism. Besides, you don't think blacks would have done the same thing if they were more advanced than us back in the day?

BellaDonna

So would I.

Let's just hope nobody goes back and reads those posts of mine in context or her whole position will be blown.

Well, if only white people pay it, that would be great!

(Just kidding!)

We've been over this. Where is the Federal Government going to get it? What are you advocating Mike? Where is this money going to come from if not from the citizens? It's the same argument. What do the reparations crowd say about that? "From the government" is a black hole.

In your post to me, where you mention 20% or 30% or 40%, you talk like the government's sitting over there on top of a pile of cash. 30% of $12 trillion is $3.6 Trillion.

That's still over $52,000 per white family. I don't know about you, but I don't think most people have that sitting around to give to the government to pay their "debt". If they do, then maybe I'm all turned around on this reparations thing...