I'm not sure what the point of making that point would be It sort of devalues the impact discrimination against minorities has on our society--don't you agree?

Absolutely the degree of harm alters the underlying effect. If I mug you, you have lost your wallet--easily replaced. If I murder you, you have lost your life, which cannot be replaced.

I'm very glad you agree that white society needs to change systemic racism. Where you and I are having difficulty understanding each other, however, is where your assertions that minorities are equally guilty of causing harm through racism is the correct dialogue to have in order to encourage white society to change systemic racism. That doesn't make much sense to me, especially given that much of the animosity between minorities and whites would be vastly overcome if said systemic racism, and the reasons for it, didn't exist.

[quote]

Blacks and other minorities have to an extent become racist just as whites have. They have as much ability to change their behavior as whites do.
[/ QUOTE]

The fallacy in that argument is that first, you must conclude that minorities believe they are superior to whites based on their own skin color and ethnicity. I have not come across a deep-seated believe within minority cultures that states those who are black (or subsitute your choice of minority here) are born more intelligent or moral and ethical simply based on how dark someone's skin color is.

Second, you must ignore the probability that antagonism toward whites has something to do with over a century of violent and oppressive behaviors toward minorities.

I absolutely do agree though that minorities have the power to change their beliefs--in so far as they may based on perceptions rather than reality.

Funny I don't want to devolve this serious discussion to a tit-for-tat type of exchange. If, however, you did find I stated something for the sole purpose of insulting you, please bring this to my attention because it was never my intent to question your character--merely your assertions, which is the basis of debate.

Otherwise, I'm happy to continue discussing the issue with you and welcome your thoughts.

I appreciate your warning and will take it under consideration. I have researched extensively my positions, however, and am happy to offer into evidence any and all facts that I can to support them.

Anyone who would like to bring any of my previous statements to the fore for further discussion is welcome to do so. I may need to ask for context so that I can recall the reasons they were made if too much time passes, but overall, I don't think that will be the case.

Quite right, and the beautiful part of posting on a forum like this. You can give a little thought to what you post before entering it.

__________________
Not a day goes by that I don't see something that reinforces my belief that people are idiots.

Please refrain from "you are" statements and personal attacks (i.e. "superdude is very ignorant.")


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"Of course the fact that a person believes in racial equality doesn't prove that he's a communist...but it certainly makes you look twice, doesn't it? You can't get away from the fact that racial equality is part of the communist line." - Joseph McCarthy

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[quote=MikeT;61134]I'm not sure what the point of making that point would be It sort of devalues the impact discrimination against minorities has on our society--don't you agree?



Absolutely the degree of harm alters the underlying effect. If I mug you, you have lost your wallet--easily replaced. If I murder you, you have lost your life, which cannot be replaced.



I'm very glad you agree that white society needs to change systemic racism. Where you and I are having difficulty understanding each other, however, is where your assertions that minorities are equally guilty of causing harm through racism is the correct dialogue to have in order to encourage white society to change systemic racism. That doesn't make much sense to me, especially given that much of the animosity between minorities and whites would be vastly overcome if said systemic racism, and the reasons for it, didn't exist.

Mike:

Let me sum up my position on racism and perhaps we can come to agreement.

I dislike racism of any sort. But I also recognize that we are all of us, black, white brown, etc. racist to a degree. Including myself. Likewise, I believe that we can change our propensity for racism by interaction and education. I further believe that the racism on the part of whites has had a much more profound effect on minorities then racism demonstrated by minorities towards whites or other minorities. Ideally I'd like to see all cultures celebrated and people become "skin color blind." But I am also a realist and that goal is a long way off.

I hope that this clarifies my position.

Yes, it does clarify and I see that we are not so very different in our beliefs. I do find that I tend to dislike the propensity many white people have for trying to give "equal" time to racism against whites when discussing societal racism and the effects of discrimination.

To me, it is the same as demanding that men have equal time to discuss how they are victims of female-perpretated rape when discussing rape and its effects. The severity of the problem is so lopsided that to believe each 'type' deserves equal time is to ignore, demean, and minimize the impact the more damaging 'type' has.

As with rape, systemic racism in white society is about power. I believe that when we devote these rare opportunities we have to discuss systemic racism as a way to show how "everyone does it" rather than the core issues and impact it has on the less powerful (minorities) we have actually missed an opportunity to use dialogue and share information that moves us toward a place in time when systemic racism in white society no longer exists.

This is perhaps why I've taken exception to the notion (not just here, but in the past, as this is very common in these dialogues) that discussing the possibilities for racism, prejudice, discrimination, bigotry, etc. in mankind's make-up will move the discussion forward. More often than not, it moves it off track, and at times, backward.

Hope that clarifies my position.

Yes, thank you, it does clarify your position.