WEB you asked the question:

Does saying what "the US" should do count as telling white people what to do?

Then you proceeded to name Malcolm X, WEB Du Bois and Booker T as Black people who did that. Each one of them HISTORICAL FIGURES. With each one of them you failed to mention WHO they suggested Whites heed and follow. With each one of them you failed to mention, by name, even White historical figures they suggested Whites follow.

It was your response "Does saying what "the US" should do count?" that did not make sense. But maybe you believe the default value for American is White. I dunno.


No. Not exactly. But since you're having such a hard time at this, go ahead. List those Black people who make suggestions to Whites parellel to the type of gracious, friendly advice Tokie gave:

"Blacks might try taking some of Bill Cosby's advice..."

Man!!! Did you see that? Tokie gave his advice and referenced someone Black that other Blacks should follow!!!

So, there are two people worth mentioning in this bit of social research:

1. The Black speaker/writer/leader granting advice to White Americans; AND

2. The White person (speaker/writer/leader) the Black speaker suggests that Whites should heed and follow.


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My patience with you is exhausted. If you imply that I am a racist again YOU are history from this forum. This is not the right forum for your race-card playing.


WEB


P.S. Off-topic comments moved to the http://www.politicsforumpoliticalwor...al-refuse.html thread.

__________________
"Of course the fact that a person believes in racial equality doesn't prove that he's a communist...but it certainly makes you look twice, doesn't it? You can't get away from the fact that racial equality is part of the communist line." - Joseph McCarthy

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Okay, we'll do it like this:

Why would you think that would count?


And on topic:

TOKIE'S statement: "Blacks might try taking some of Bill Cosby's advice..."

All I'm asking is for a simple substitution be made and for the
Black speaker/writer/leader be named along with the White person s/he suggests Whites "might try taking" advice from.


EXAMPLE:
Black person [insert their name] says, "Whites might try taking some of [White person's name] advice..."

For the reason that:

(1) The US has had most of its economic, political and social decisions made by white people for the past 350 years of its history (yes, US history before the 1787 signing of the US Constitution is US history).

(2) Even after the Civil Rights movement, US political, social and economic decisions are made by white people.

(3) Even though these facts indicate that "the US should do this" can very easily mean "white people should do this", ASIDE FROM THAT, it is very likely that black people could be using the "US" and "White People" interchangeably, REGARDLESS of what the US actually is in truth.

Below I show a post from a black poster (Ceci):

Can Americans truly deal with the issue of race?
Dominant culture is code for white. She is implying in her statement that white people need to take "social disparity" (which is code for racial disparity IMO) seriously.


WEB

__________________
"Of course the fact that a person believes in racial equality doesn't prove that he's a communist...but it certainly makes you look twice, doesn't it? You can't get away from the fact that racial equality is part of the communist line." - Joseph McCarthy

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Current Diplomacy thread

I'm done with this thread. It's obvious that this is just a baiting ploy, not intention for real discussion. What does it matter who I listed? I believe their advice to be valuable. Does it's age make it any less relevant?

__________________
"The saddest aspect of life right now is that science gathers knowledge faster than society gathers wisdom."
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Hmmmm..........the one problem I see with this post/thread is (unintentional as it is) an advancement of racisim. By suggesting that people of different skin colors should "listen" to different mentors/advisors simply because of their "skin color" has the faint odor of racism. The last time I checked, there was only one RACE in the world and that was the Human Race. Now, granted, there are various "shades" of skin color, but there REMAINS ONLY ONE RACE. As a "race" we shold listen to as many people as possible and determine who "best represents" our own personla beliefs and thus find a "mentor/adviser" to draw strength, direction and support from.

It's baiting to ask a question about a phenomenon that exists and happens all the time on forums. I guess it's also baiting to expect genuine answers to the line of inquiry, again, that's about an existing phenomenon that, as noted, is something that happens right here on this board.


I didn't ask you if there was some Black person's whose advice you considered valuable. That was not the line of inquiry.


I merely made an observation. Certainly if the phenomenon occurs at the same relative frequency between groups then there should be contemporary people who also wax paternalistically about another group. I also elaborated on what should have been obvious

And that's just it. Your observations were simply off-the-mark. Again, I didn't ask what Black person you agreed with or otherwise considered their advice valuable. Nevertheless, it was unclear whether Baldwin waxed paternalistically and offered advice to Whites not only about what they need to do (as a race) but who in their "race" they should listen to.


At best, you and WEB addressed but one part of the inquiry.


I find it quite odd that me highlighting this phenomenon is labeled "race-baiting" when the very comments that served as an impetus are, for some reason, totally disregarded and never labeled as anything like that.

HUH?

I never suggested anything regarding what people "should" do or not. I merely asked the question if the practice occurs with the same relative frequency from one race/ethnic group to the other. It's my experience that the type of comments I highlighted (namely Tokie's comment) tend to be more frequent with Whites wanting to lend their advice to Blacks, e.g., about what they should do and who they should listen to.

All I asked about is if this is a practice that's observed in every (or most groups) in the same fashion and with the same frequency.

WEB this sounds like an elaborate argument stating the very thing you vehemently objected to, claiming that I "implied" that you were racist.

Anyway, as I stated above in my response to EP, you have only addressed one aspect of the inquiry. I made a specific inquiry about a specific phenomenon which specifically seeks out and states the race to be given the advice and the name of the person of the same race whose advice that same race is suppose to heed and follow.

Once again, Tokie's statement was the latest impetus for this inquiry:

TOKIE'S statement: "Blacks might try taking some of Bill Cosby's advice..."


All I'm asking is for is an honest examination of this phenomenon by way of a simple substitution:


EXAMPLE:

Black person [insert their name] says, "Whites might try taking some of [White person's name] advice..."


Now, "talk about the number of times you've heard another race/ethnic group wax paternalistically and tell Whites who they should listen to and heed" and please name the names and note whether the phenomenon occurs with the same relative frequency...




Hmmm... There is NO presumed/assumed "implication" with what Tokie and a host of thousands have to say. The type of thing you make note of would be more appropriately compared to, e.g, White attitudes regarding AA or some other government program or some intervention where the gov't is implicated.

The odd thing about that is, even when Whites, e.g., note how the gov't does this or that, many will virtually blame Blacks for a gov't policy they perceive as something that specifically benefits Blacks. And it's also clear that the kind of advice Tokie offered wasn't something that implicated some type of gov't action. That kind of advice borders on (and often is) personal, albeit socio-cultural, advice. There is a huge and rather obvious difference.

Blacks can certainly offer Whites advice about "what they need to do" in terms of not blaming Blacks for AA and the perception that Blacks are "taking" opportunities for them and, in so doing, kindly advise Whites to follow the words/thoughts of a particular White individual. Apparently, from the lack of responses that show evidence of this in that specific manner... Well, it must not occur nearly as frequently.

As for what Ceci specifically said...what's missing is not the prescription or advice-request she made but the White person she identified as the person Whites would be wise to listen to (because he's someone of their race, e.g.) and follow. And the noted socio-cultural, damn near personal nature of the advice is largely absent from Ceci's comment because, IMO, the dominant culture reference implicates not so much the race of the dominant culture but the very collective social position and power they hold allowing with the ability to make decisions (positive, negative and non-decisions) that, due to their social position/"dominance", impact not only their lives but the lives of others.

That is hardly the same thing and markedly different in nature, scope and intent-motive.

If she had said something along the lines of White people need to do something about METH - i.e. something in their own neighborhoods; aka a specific problem they are faced with - then that would be different and comparable to the type of remarks I'm asking about.


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Sounds like something I said. I just put the money in it:

Nationally, White people get to decide what to do with Black people's money.