Country Reputation - Page 3 - Political Forum

writerman · #21 (**permalink**) 06-29-2007, 01:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by baxter

I find these kinds of statements utterly boring. Please find a better argument. The Marshall Plan doesn't grant you a carte blanche to do whatever you want. And you should learn from your elders, we have seen and lived two devastating wars on our soil, and therefore know what war really is and what it means.

I never said the Marshall Plan grants us carte blanche--but it would be nice to see you7 damned deadbeats, who are now wealthy enough to pay for and control every aspect of your citizen's lives from birth to death, to repay some of the billions we spent saving your asses from problems you created yourselves (such as spawning Adolph Hitler and National Socialism from the Treaty of Versailles.) As for your laughable suggestion we should "learn from our elders." (pretty senile ones, it seems to me) how many governments have many of the European Nations have since 1789? Our Constitution makes our government one of the older ones in terms of continuance and stability. Maybe some Euros should learn from their elders, and in terms of governmental institutions, that's the USA.

(By the way, writerman, your friend sounds like a racist thug.)

You don't even know the man. He's a fine person, and a very devout Christian (and the fact that Europe's cathedrals are mostly empty on Sundays makes him shake his head in disgust) and one who usually eschews violence, but when there's a chance a lady is going to be harmed, that's another matter. And by the standards of any reasonable person that certainly doesn't excuse the punks and the lack of professionalism and bias of the worthless Madrid Police. And by the way, you sound like you're excusing the punks and applaud the police in their attempt to harrass a man only exercising his right of self defense.

Yes. Even though the U.S gives more in terms of US$, in terms of GNI (which is the thing to look at), the US gives a very small amount compared to European nations.

So--we give more than any number of wealthy European nations combined--and Europe's total population exceeds ours--and we're the stingy ones?

W.E.B. Du Bois · #22 (**permalink**) 06-29-2007, 02:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by baxter

US and Foreign Aid Assistance - Global Issues
Look at the second graph (have to scroll down a bit)

Net ODA (Official Development Assistance) in 2006 as percent of GNI

Sweden 1.03
Luxembourg 0.89
Norway 0.89
Netherlands 0.81
Denmark 0.8
Ireland 0.53
UK 0.52
Belgium 0.5
Austria 0.48
France 0.47
Finland 0.39
Switzerland 0.39
Germany 0.36
Spain 0.32
Australia 0.3
Canada 0.3
New Zealand 0.27
Japan 0.25
Portugal 0.21
Italy 0.2
USA 0.17
Greece 0.16

I think this tell the story for itself...but I can't help myself. The US is one of the lowest contributors of aid in terms GNI of all the advanced countries. And on top of that, the first FOURTEEN of this list are European countries, and of the list of 22 countries, 17 are in Europe. Yet to my disappointment, the poll seems to be showing that the people here think the US has a good influence on the world, despite the wars...Maybe I'll succeed in changing your minds.

I'll accept that I was wrong on that issue of international aid. The US gives out far less per capita than European countries do. I would point out though, that the US still provides for European defense with our nuclear umbrella, massive conventional military, as well as for South Korea and Japan and resolves many international conflicts (1991 Kuwait, 1995 Bosnia, 1999 Kosovo, 2001 Afghanistan). We actually have a military and we use it to protect other countries, including your own and that costs money. You are able to spend on foreign aid because we have to take our money and pay for the defense of your country and many other countries around the world.

WEB

Slartibartfas · #23 (**permalink**) 06-29-2007, 03:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by writerman

for suggesting all Europeans are stupid. Obviously they are not.

Well, then dont suggest so. Its extremely rude.

Quote:

But that doesn't keep me from thinking that they, their governments in particular, have a lot of really silly and counterproductive ideas. Many Europeans also harbor an almost primal and unreasoning hatred of the United States that goes beyond just disagreeing with our government's policies. And why shouldn't my friend have "prejudices" against Europeans who are contantly subjecting him to harangues disparaging America, and not only its foreign policy, but its customs and culture as well?

Mutual understanding is a two way street. Justifying ones own ignorance with the one of the other side, might work, but it doesnt make anything better.

Quote:

He was recently actually physically attacked by some young Euro punks (they must get their training and inspiration for such activities at your soccer matches...) in Madrid for merely being an American. They picked the wrong guy--he's 6'2" and 240 muscular pounds, and he came out pretty much unscathed. A couple of them weren't so fortunate. The police weren't any less prejudiced--they tried to trump up some charges against him for defending himself, but weren't able to get away with it because the lady he is dating that was with him (she's Irish) witnessed the whole incident and collaborated his story, which they then--very reluctantly--had to accept.

Punks sucks. I cant comment on this story though, as I do not know how severe the attack was, how much alcohol was involved, who provoked whom. Such assholes like those punks exist everywhere on the world though, I would only question your accusations towards the police. They might have been sceptic, but its a bit far fetched that they wanted to blame the American because the might dislike America or so.

I can do nothing else than excusing for having people like those punks (skinheads are even worse btw) living on our beautiful continent. But I want to make clear that this is clearly not the rule. Actually its the first time I have heard that an American was physically attacked for being American. Normally this anti Americanism is exclusively verbal or of subtle nature.

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About Islam, I make no apologies. IMO, Islam is in its essence, as was Naziism, evil, a global pathology bred of ignorance and intolerance that parades as a religion. In the long run--and maybe not too long at that--I think much if not all of Europe will live under Sharia law.

Doesnt the US also knows something like the freedom of religion? If I hear you, it would not sound like that. Without the islamic world, much of the antic knowledge would have been lost forever btw. Those "pathologic" people saved it for us, and they also had many great minds. While Christians ethnic cleansed Spain, they were a stronghold of tolerance. And you tell me something of a nazi like religion?

Condemning all the Muslims in general like you do, is nothing different from condemning the jews. I know some muslims. They meet not a single of your points.

writerman · #24 (**permalink**) 06-29-2007, 03:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by W.E.B. Du Bois

I'll accept that I was wrong on that issue of international aid. The US gives out far less per capita than European countries do. I would point out though, that the US still provides for European defense with our nuclear umbrella, massive conventional military, as well as for South Korea and Japan and resolves many international conflicts (1991 Kuwait, 1995 Bosnia, 1999 Kosovo, 2001 Afghanistan). We actually have a military and we use it to protect other countries, including your own and that costs money. You are able to spend on foreign aid because we have to take our money and pay for the defense of your country and many other countries around the world.

WEB

that the presence of our military personnel in those and other countries is of positive economic value to many communities there. Towns in Germany near our bases during the NATO heyday grew fat and sassy selling overpriced merchandise to GIs, and that was also true, and still remains true today in many places in other countries as well.

baxter · #25 (**permalink**) 06-29-2007, 03:08 PM

Quote:

So--we give more than any number of wealthy European nations combined--and Europe's total population exceeds ours--and we're the stingy ones?

Get your facts right:

US and Foreign Aid Assistance - Global Issues

USA 22,739
UK 12,607
Japan 11,608
France 10,448
Germany 10,351
Netherlands 5,452
Sweden 3,967
Spain 3,801
Canada 3,713
Italy 3,672
Norway 2,946
Denmark 2,234
Australia 2,128
Belgium 1,968
Switzerland 1,647
Austria 1,513
Ireland 997
Finland 826
Portugal 391
Greece 384
Luxembourg 291
New Zealand 257

And yes, when you look at the US's GNI, they are stingy.

W.E.B. Du Bois · #26 (**permalink**) 06-29-2007, 03:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by writerman

that the presence of our military personnel in those and other countries is of positive economic value to many communities there. Towns in Germany near our bases during the NATO heyday grew fat and sassy selling overpriced merchandise to GIs, and that was also true, and still remains true today in many places in other countries as well.

I think we need to look at the overall picture here. The US IS providing global security for Europe and many other small countries. Russia has enough nukes to wipe out Europe and for 50 years we have covered Europe with our nuclear umbrella and maintained an enormous military in order to prevent Europe from being overrun. We saved France from being conquered twice, and then rebuilt Europe with the Marshall Plan. We provided the military force that was necessary to police a state in Europe's own backyard (Serbia) and we provided 90% of the military force in Operation Desert Shield in Kuwait in 1991. The US contribution to Europe and global security is not be poo-poohed so easy as baxter suggests.

On other issues, we as Americans are heavily indebted, so much so that our economy is vulnerable to collapse. I think we need to really start taking a look and reining in all of our spending, foreign and abroad to avert this. I think that some of our domestic programs might need to be expanded, but not without undoing the Bush tax cuts and possibly cutting spending elsewhere. We have serious financial problems and we need to get a plan to become solvent. That is a national priority. We have to start paying our debts down.

WEB

Slartibartfas · #27 (**permalink**) 06-29-2007, 03:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by writerman

You might dismiss it a ancient history, but we have had to come in and clean up major European messes twice in the past century at the cost of American lives (my Uncle was gassed at Argonne Forest) and then to get you back on your feet with the Marshall Plan--and IMO we have gotten damned little gratitude for those things, not to mention any attempt to repay war debts owed us. Europe couldn't even muster up the will to deal with a problem at their own back door in the former Yugoslavia--we had to shoulder the lion's share of that mess too. So don't preach to us about how stingy we are. IMO we've paid our dues, and then some, and the vast majority of Americans will agree with that.

For WWII you have some point. For your involvement in WWI, you helplessly overestimate the role the US played in it as it seems.

Its wrong that we are not thankful for the Marshal plan. Just recently were some events that reminded the great help we received.

Regarding Yugoslavia, what do you expect from the European armies that have been focused for decades on strong defense (against Russia)? Within a few years of the breakdown of the east block they should from one day to another the capacities for offensive campaigns?

Additionally one might add, that Europe is in a difficult time of transition. Some Americans won't be able to understand that, as they have not experienced something like this, in the last somewhat 150 years. Btw, its not the US that is the reason why there is peace now on the Balkan. Its the gravitational forces of the EU.
And as you might have come to know already, the most difficult task is not to win the war, but to win the peace.

Quote:

Where in the hell was the world after Hurricane Katrina? After 9/11?

Your administration did not request any help. Had it done so, it would have got plenty of it, but it told the world that it can handle it alone.

FRYandBENDER · #28 (**permalink**) 06-29-2007, 03:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by baxter

Yes. Even though the U.S gives more in terms of US$, in terms of GNI (which is the thing to look at), the US gives a very small amount compared to European nations.

Well, I guess that is the difference between a Frenchman and an American. Even though the dollar amount that we give is substantially higher, you're still not satisfied because we're not "sacrificing" enough. Don't worry though. I have a feeling we're about to have an extended period of Democratic leadership over here and we will soon be as socialistic as you guys.

Anyways, back to the "sacrifices" we don't make. Just who in the hell is Europe, or are you for that matter, to criticize the US when the actual dollar amount we give blows your collective dollar amount out of the water. If the best you can do is criticize that we don't give a ceartain percentage of our GNI then you are really getting desperate for something bad to say. And who exactly decided that percent of GNI is "the thing to look at?" Lets take a look at what percent of your argument makes no sense at all. That is like saying "Well, I didn't get the job done as well you did,....... but I tried harder than you did." Obviously we must be doing something right.

If this is the kind of lame criticisms we are going to get I say we quit handing out our money and support for a decade and see how the world gets along then. This includes the ridiculous amount of consumer goods that we import.

FRYandBENDER · #29 (**permalink**) 06-29-2007, 03:28 PM

To each according to his need, from each according to his ability!

Slartibartfas · #30 (**permalink**) 06-29-2007, 03:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FRYandBENDER

Well, I guess that is the difference between a Frenchman and an American. Even though the dollar amount that we give is substantially higher, you're still not satisfied because we're not "sacrificing" enough. Don't worry though. I have a feeling we're about to have an extended period of Democratic leadership over here and we will soon be as socialistic as you guys.

Anyways, back to the "sacrifices" we don't make. Just who in the hell is Europe, or are you for that matter, to criticize the US when the actual dollar amount we give blows your collective dollar amount out of the water. If the best you can do is criticize that we don't give a ceartain percentage of our GNI then you are really getting desperate for something bad to say. And who exactly decided that percent of GNI is "the thing to look at?" Lets take a look at what percent of your argument makes no sense at all. That is like saying "Well, I didn't get the job done as well you did,....... but I tried harder than you did." Obviously we must be doing something right.

If this is the kind of lame criticisms we are going to get I say we quit handing out our money and support for a decade and see how the world gets along then. This includes the ridiculous amount of consumer goods that we import.

I had this aid spending discussion already so often. I really would have liked not to warm it up again.

But may I see the numbers that show that your amount of aid blows up the EU aid alltogether (in Dollars)?

You ask why the economic potence of a country is considered as basis? Is that so hard to find out? The more powerfull your economy is the easier you can spend some aid.