I would like to have a discussion on the definition regarding the "Sins of the Father". In discussions about diversity and culture, I have seen this term thrown around whenever a person of color discusses their experiences about race. Furthermore, this has been used whenever there are key aspects of history that deal with specific cultural issues that have a key presence in the American society of today.

Why, instead of having an honest discussion about past and present historical and societal events affecting racial identity and culture in the present day, does one use the "Sins of the Father" as a blanket excuse to get out of such conversations?

Why is it important for one to say that it was the "sins of the father" instead of acknowledging the historical event and discussing truthfully?

And what does one get out of using the "sins of the father" excuse"?

Is this phrase dismissive? Useful? A cliche?

Tell me your thoughts on this topic.

__________________
Ceci's News and Views Forum

First, do you know what is meant by "sins of the father(s)"? I have to ask because, if you knew what is meant by it, then I doubt that it'd make you feel very comfortable.

Why do you ask? Does it make you very comfortable?

I honestly would like to know because it has been used by some members of the dominant culture repeatedly whenever there are historical or social discussions about race. Maybe if someone would provide a good working definition, then we all could understand why this has been uttered.

After all, it is another "catch phrase" (such as "I don't see a color", "We are all part of the human race", "You're playing the race card", etc.).

So, respectfully, it is about coming clean about an oft-used word.

In light of that, I would like to hear what other people think about this phrase civily.

__________________
Ceci's News and Views Forum

[quote=Ceci;34239]

After all, it is another "catch phrase" (such as "I don't see a color", "We are all part of the human race",
/QUOTE]

Isn't that what we want people to say? I'm 25. All my life I've heard that you shouldn't judge people based on their skin color and that we are all the same. I would have figured that you would agree to this type of thinking.

__________________
Neither am I the means to any end others may wish to accomplish. I am not a tool for their use. I am not a servant of their needs. I am not a bandage for their wounds. I am not a sacrifice on their altars. ... I owe nothing to my brothers, nor do I gather debts from them. I ask no one to live for me, nor do I live for others. I covet no mans soul, nor is my soul theirs to covet.

Ayn Rand, Anthem.

The "sins of the father" thing, IMO, is misunderstood. I'd like to see it contrasted with the "Original Sin."

Once you look at the concepts, it's clear that while no one should be punished for what their ancestors did, that there is an inevitable and unavoidable responsibility of sorts to deal with the situation ones forebearers left.

What's missed in discussions where this "sins of the fathers" ideas comes up as an excuse not to deal with the situation decisions made in the past left is how those decisions impacted Africans/African-Americans, e.g., in ways that show how people have to deal with things that are not of their own creation.

For those who use the "sins of the fathers" line, IMO, it's a cop out. I'll grant them some leeway considering how certain conversations are framed but they have no excuse and no reason to take such a selfish view and pretend like they have some special exemption or exception where they can abdicate their responsibility to deal with the situation other generations of Americans left.

Black people, IMO, by and large do that even when its clear they didn't create the problems that result from colorism, e.g.

Why would you have figured that? Think about that for a moment.

Also, talk about where and from whom have you heard this stuff "all your life." Examine the context. Note how discussions about race, Black/White, etc., are not mutually exclusive from discussions about the human race.

Therein lies the problem. If you were truly listening and heard it from CECI and others with views like her's then you would see the marked difference. People who use those catch phrase talk about race and the human race as mutually exclusive.

There is a difference.

Even though I mostly agree with N2dis' opinions and questions so far, I just wanted to clarify a few things:

I think that when a person of color has been systematically stripped by the dominant culture of their identity through laws, social norms, values and beliefs in order to assimliate, these sayings become inocuous--especially when one experiences institutional and individual racism daily because of the color of their skin.

When you look at the meaning of the phrases, there are two ways to see it:

1)Since white people have the luxury of not thinking about their color due white privilege (access and treatment by virtue of skin color in society), they expect people of color to think of the same way even though they don't receive the same access and treatment in society.

2)They are remarks of omission, meaning that they are used to ignore that social disparity occurs on the basis of skin color. Furthermore, the speaker does not want to acknowledge that these disparities are taking place and would like to think that we're all receiving equal treatment. By "not seeing a color", one is being "blind" to the realities of society when it has to do with racial discrimination. Nor, do they ever bring themselves to question it or even have feelings about it. Thus, it becomes a blanket term to dispell that these things happen. It is as if a white person is saying, "I don't care that there is racial discrimination. It's all in your mind because color does not exist."

Biologically, we are (except for gender differences). Since race is a political and social construct, we are not the same in terms of treatment and access in society. I agree with Ndis2 on the point that you have to question who taught this to you? Until there is a true discussion and movement toward social equality, we are not all the same because discrimination continually occurs that results in unequal injustice for different groups in society. And until people drop the "we are all the same" catch phrase and begin the study not only the orgin of the racial problems that we have today as well as the consequences, we will continue to hide behind that phony teaching and put our heads in the sand.

Truthfully, I want everyone from all backgrounds to treat each other with respect, concern and identification. Then, we truly can grow together and become a more life-affirming society.

But this has to be done by acknowledging our diversity instead of omitting it.

Furthermore, white people really have to search within themselves in order to have the courage to face what they have benefitted from collectively in a social and historical sense. When one is still reaping the benefits of social access, acceptance and acknowledgement in society, then it isn't in the past; it is still happening today. Lastly, white people have to honestly discuss race and not avoid it by resorting to the "catch-phrases". In fact, it is also upon them to analyze and deconstruct the "catch-phrases" to understand why they use "the script" instead of listening to the experiences of not only others of their race but with people of color.

If some can do that, then we'll get somewhere.

__________________
Ceci's News and Views Forum

It's an old testament quote from the bible. (Exodus 20:5) - "You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me,"
That is where the phrase "Sins of the Father" comes from

But people who say this as a cop out obviously haven't read their bible because in the new testament, jesus tells us that each man will one day be judged according to his sins when he faces judgement from God.

__________________
~John Locke

Discuss the Issue, Not the Poster

"Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not everyone is entitled to their own facts"
-Sen. Daniel Patrick Moynihan

"Great thoughts speak only to the thoughtful mind, but great actions speak to all mankind."
-Teddy Roosevelt

The Bible, including Jesus and the New Testament, promotes the idea that we are "born in sin and shaped in inequity."

It seems like "The Sins of the Father" are those very things that we are "born" in and what "shapes" us. There is no escaping it. What we have today is a product of the past. That includes what we know, how we see the world, etc.

But, anytime someone can figure out how to apply get me out of paying a share of the National Debt, e.g., that's from some time or decision made before I was born or of age... I'm all ears. lol

It is irrelevant. Religious scriptures/texts CANNOT be taken seriously. Unless you want to discuss on the same level of harry potter, LOTR, or some other good stories.