Ceci

I'm very sorry that you felt it was an attack on another poster, but it wasn't. I answered Nmaginate's observances on this topic. But it was neither mean-spirited nor immature--from my point of view.

It's the truth, even though some took it the wrong way. And unfortunately, I can sound rather hard and terse in my posts when I am discussing and debating ideas. For that, I apologize as well. I do not mean to sound so hard. I am constantly working to soften my language a bit more.

I re-read my comments and realized that the last sentence did not need to be put in there, so I've removed it. I've received your admonition loud and clear.

I apologize to Scribbler and to you.

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emptypepsi

LOL, well Thane, I'm actually half-hispanic, which is what makes your outlook more true when the guy said it was a "racist boss" not letting him advance. We're practically the same ethnicity (I think he was 100% hispanic) yet he comes to work with his pants sagging off his ass with his cell phone firmly in his ear while he worked half the shift and he was in sheer amazement about the fact that he wasn't advancing. And then he quits (which shocked me, as I would have fired him long before that).

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Ceci

I don't see it as mealy-mouthed. It comes from observable phenomena and socio-psychological studies based on why there is a lack of empathy in the American national character, especially during the present day.

It is documented that individualism does contribute to issues of psychopathy within American culture due to the encouragement of narcissism, cool indifference and lack of connectedness with other individuals.

So, it's not presented in the way that you think. But, I understand your suspiciousness.

I will be back to answer your other comments later in the day.

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emptypepsi

Okay. I don't see isolated instances as a reason to tie Individualism with psychosocial disorders, as Individualism is what makes many people strong internally as well. Individualism is about the right to choose to be selfish, or choose any other lifestyle. That does not mean one is going to be that way, just because the choice is made available.

To me that argument is the same as me saying collectivism by name alone leads to Totalitarianism, as no tyrant ever rose to power except on the premise of 'the common good'. Therefore, on that, I could say that any group of collectivists must be totalitarians at heart. It doesn't make any sense, of course, and doesn't really get to the crux of the issue. Individualism is not the culprit here, as it is not the prevailing philosophy in the United States. There are mixes of much pholosphical thought found in our system.

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"The saddest aspect of life right now is that science gathers knowledge faster than society gathers wisdom."
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Ygorl

I wondered if you'd mention that. I caught it after rereading your post. But, I wasn't 100 % sure because the picture I remember seeing of you looked pretty caucasian to ME. But, I look 100 % white and have some American indian in me ... and lord knows what else.

Anywho, the whole victim game played by so many dark skinned people is just a way of screwing themselves out of a decent life.

I never got the whole "people of color" thing. White is a freakin' color TOO.

Different skin color, different hair color different eye color. Jeez, who cares.

Don't expect someone ELSE to hand you a nice life. That's just not going to happen.

Well, MAYBE if someone was born with a real nice clean PAISLEY skin "color"/pattern

The whole "race" thing. Gad, get off yer ass, get educated and get some things accomplished. It's not any easier for us dumb 'whiteys' this thing called reality

Ceci

Talking about race from a cultural perspective is not a "victim game". It's just putting the cards on the table and dealing with it when so many people refuse to.

The statement I have addressed proves my point about the problematic aspects of using "victimhood" and "victim culture" in race-related talks.

It's just a way to describe people who aren't white. Although, I am very glad that you "see color". People who subscribe to the "color-blind" theory propose that "they don't see people as a color". They furthermore accuse others that discuss racial identity as being "racist" due to their own inability to deal with racial issues to the point of dismissing others who discuss them.

A lot of people do--especially when they get on the short end of the stick due to social disparity.

Who thinks that white people are solely responsible for handing non-white people a nice life? I don't. That statement alone smacks of superiority, arrogance and lack of identification with a cultural perspective about non-white people.

What makes you think that people who are non-white aren't educated and don't have things accomplished? Why is it that when people of color mention their experiences of race, someone who is white thinks that they aren't doing anything important? Isn't this a little arrogant on your part to say that "dark-skinned" people aren't doing anything substantial with their lives?

Why is it that only white people can only speak of their perceptions about race and still walk away with the perception that they are responsible, accomplished and intelligent?

That's what I mean when I say that talking about race is problematic when dealing with some people of dominant culture--especially when they exhibit a line of thinking which places the person of color as an infantile persecutor for bringing up issues that they don't want to hear.

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Ceci

Although I agree with you that acknowledging one's self-identity does make a person strong and responsible for one's self, I disagree that these situations are so isolated. Individualism is socialized in American society. As a result, it is tied to some really distinctive social problems that affect empathy--especially when it has to do with how the dominant culture perceives groups outside of its own category.



It is about being selfish. I only disagree with a little bit that you said. I'm sure that there are people who pride themselves on individualism, but still they are looking out for special interests that pertain to only them instead of dwelling on the larger community. And that is the problem here.

You're right. But that is why "collectivism" and "community" are terminology in the American mind-set (especially with dominant thinking) has to be re-defined in order to develop a sense of interconnectedness and identification with other people.

I disagree. They might be collectivists, but they are only pushing collectively for their own self-interests to supercede the thoughts and needs of other people. That's where your perceptions falter when it comes to my argument.

I'm espousing that people need to be part of a community in order to understand and work with one another in terms of a better society on their own volition. Having a sense of community is not bad; it's what you do with the community that makes it important. And that is why it is important that a socialized group is given their own existence as long as they don't use their collectivism to dominate the identities, social norms and ideals of other sub-groups in society.

That is why social dominance theory is quite important when dealing with the transmission of the dominant group's ideals in a given society. What the theory proposes is the social norms, heritage, values and ideas of the dominant group in society is communicated to be superior over the same attributes belonging to a sub-group. The sub-groups within society are made out to be inferior and dismissive to keep these aspects belonging to the dominant group in tact. As a result, prejudice and discrimination occur in order to perpetuate the superiority of the dominant group in particular society. There are certain aspects that contribute to keeping the system together solely to appease the dominant group's needs over that of any sub-group.

I'll have more to say on this notion later.

And unfortunately, the problems from race stem not only from a lack of empathy; but also from a lack of identification with others to the point of "eliminating" their heritage in order to preserve a system of unearned benefits and reinforce a line of thinking that espouses the socialized norms of a specialized few. Collectivism is not that cut and dried because there are many different groups in society that operate in various ways. That's why it makes good sense to investigate the notions of power and its effects when dealing with dominant discourses and how sub-groups operate under them in society.

You're right. But it does get to the crux of the issue. I believe we must examine the national character when it has to do with race. Individualism may not be the only culprit, but it provides a glimpse into why race is not adequately dealt with by the dominant culture.

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Ygorl

Your attempt to paint me as a neo-aryan-nazi isn't appreciated.

Although I really don't care what some character on the internet thinks of me.

Why in the hell would you say:

Why is it that only white people can only speak of their perceptions about race and still walk away with the perception that they are responsible, accomplished and intelligent?


Who thinks that white people are solely responsible for handing non-white people a nice life? I don't. That statement alone smacks of superiority, arrogance and lack of identification with a cultural perspective about non-white people.


What makes you think that people who are non-white aren't educated and don't have things accomplished? Why is it that when people of color mention their experiences of race, someone who is white thinks that they aren't doing anything important? Isn't this a little arrogant on your part to say that "dark-skinned" people aren't doing anything substantial with their lives?

to me ?

Looks to me like you've heard WAY to much al sharkton and jessie hijackson.

"Every problem of the world and the entire human race is because of the evil, arrogant whitey."

See how that thinking works for you in life.

Ceci

How did that come out of my response to you? Would you please point out verbatim where "neo-aryan-nazi" and their attribution to you has been stated in my previous responses? Thank you in advance.

Why did you bring it up then?

Because, that is the perception whenever a white person uses the "take some responsibility" and "stop being a victim" argument against a person of color. These phrases reflect fallacious and insulting statements meant to dismiss the experiences of race by non-white people.


The Reverends Sharpton and Jackson aren't the spokesmen for the Black Community. They don't speak for me. And frankly, I don't really subscribe to them at all. I have a neutral view of them, though.

There are many other dignitaries that speak to a variety of issues concerning Black folk that deserve to be listened to.

Do you subscribe to this thinking? You've said it twice.

I'm puzzled why you keep on repeating this. Is it because you've subscribed to this thinking and it didn't work? Could you please explain how you are affected by this? Thank you.

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Izzibeth

Race is still an issue in the United States. And it will be for a long time. I think people try to make the issue go away by saying it's "solved" when it's not. But I also think people think that having the issue still on the table is a horrible, horrendous thing and it makes Americans bad.

As I have said... slavery JUST ENDED. The United States is extremely young as far as countries and histories go. It is going to take time for things to straighten out. My parents just slipped under the belt in terms of being able to marry each other. Inter-racial marriage was made legal only 40 years ago! That is NOT a long time at all.

People who are not white have it harder in the United States. Sorry. They do. We do. I know white people don't like to hear it because it makes them feel bad but it's the truth. But, it's early. There has not been nearly enough time for things to change and race is going to be an issue for many, many years to come (especially with the type of entertainment stuff we have going now which tries to pretend everything is a-okay instead of dealing with the fact that it's not).

Personally, I have dealt with my own race issues. I'm half white and half black. My skin is dark. Most of the time people can't even tell what I am. But I have had "The N Word" yelled at me a few times by white people and I have also been attacked (verbally) by black people for being a "traitor to my race" and an "abomination". I have been told by white guy friends that their parents said they "loved me" but they wouldn't want their white sons getting into relationships with me because of my skin color. I have had to defend myself from black students in Civil Rights lectures when they get angry that I don't classify myself as "white" or "black".

Racism is here (by people of ALL colors... not just white people) and instead of trying to pretend like it's not and act like things are okay... the US needs to deal with it. It's going to take time. And I know the U.S. wants to have things NOW but that just shows you how young we are. This race thing is not going to happen overnight. And that's okay. UNLESS you try to mask it as something else to make yourselves feel better (whites, blacks, browns, yellows, reds, whatever).... DEAL with it. Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton don't deal with it. They try to make money off of it and squash basic freedoms of certain (non brown) people with it.

Anyway. My point is you can't expect ANYTHING to change if you try to pretend like it's not there ... and you can't expect ANYTHING to change if you try to get it to change NOW. That's not how life works.

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