Agreed, again. Race is used to keep us at each others throats while "they" do whatever the fuck they want with our tax money and our country. It's been a very powerful tool in the hands of the few that wield it.

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"The saddest aspect of life right now is that science gathers knowledge faster than society gathers wisdom."
Isaac Asimov

Precisely, and it's how we are kept from addressing MUCH more important issues that these people have a vested interest in. You will notice that ALL these hot-button issues are emotional in nature. It's, as I said many times before, just the way the powers that be, regardless of color, can keep us from looking at what THEY do.

Any time I see subjects like race, abortion or gun control being "discussed", it is generally by people who already have their minds permanently made up because they are emotionally led to follow a certain premise.

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Not a day goes by that I don't see something that reinforces my belief that people are idiots.

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Very well said. There will always be a few racist idiots. There will always be a few nasty rat bastards that rape and murder children. There will ALWAYS be the dark side of humanity to deal with.

Then, there will always be the "leaders" that manipulate populations with propaganda.

Exactly. Racism, disgusting behavior...these things come with a free thinking, classically liberal society. We must fight these things through argument, not suppression. The latter tactic almost always guarantees the explosion of the opposite end of the extreme.

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"The saddest aspect of life right now is that science gathers knowledge faster than society gathers wisdom."
Isaac Asimov

CECI, it's obvious you have your answer. Far too many people just can't. Actually, too many just won't.

Here we have one example out of many where SCRIBBLER, e.g., initially set out to prove (or rather insist) that Whites DO take non-whites seriously. Of course, this thread couldn't be considered any proof of that. It is proof, however, that SCRIBBLER'S "blanket statement" protest was a farce.

Note: SCRIBBLER didn't qualify the statement with all, many, some, most, etc. but wanted to make an issue out of it when you took the liberty to use the language as freely as SCRIBBLER did.

And then, as predictably as it was, instead of the initial thrust of showing you how Whites (unqualified term) DO take non-whites seriously... the conversation quickly became what it seems it always turns out to be. And someone else put it in words better than I could:

White folks' race issue is they don't want to be held responsible for racism.
Black people's race issue is they don't want to [continue experiencing] racism.

And so, SCRIBBLER went from trying to convince you that Whites (unqualified term) DO take non-whites seriously to a defensive position of trying to deny reality, several times over and in several ways, and all responsibility to anything because...

White people who are not a PART of an institution or a participant in history are not responsible for [social/racial disparity].

Hmmm.... Guess what? Black people aren't either but they (we) still have to live and deal with that social disparity. White folks live with it too. And that's the problem. That's exactly how White people (to any and all to whom it applies and it applies to them all) are a part of both the institutional racism that persists and the history that props that stuff up.

Now, if you're going to play that game then, denounce/deny the US Constitution. White people today were not a part of the institutional process that brought the Constitution into being nor were they participants in the history that lead up to the creation and adoption of it.

Just one simple example of how absurd this rush away from reality and "responsibility" is.

Again, Black people today are not "responsible" for the social/racial disparities historical WHITE SUPREMACY, racism and discrimination created nor are they a "PART" of what continues to perpetuate those things today but Black people still have to deal with the social reality of those social/racial disparities.

Now that's something to take serious. I mean, if you really want to talk about RESPONSIBILITY. And, no, I'm not talking about how to get out of being - i.e. acting - "responsible", something that is not contigent on whether you caused something or not.

I think brilliant example of this was in the other thread where this question came up. Germans today were not responsible for the Holocaust yet they have essentially did the responsible thing and took responsibility for something that happened in their society via their government.

The same thing has happened here with both Native Americans and Japanese Americans.

When the Japanese Americans were compensated for internment, a lot of Americans who weren't even alive during WWII contributed via their taxes. No, all Americans at the time were not "responsible" for Japanse internment (Black people, e.g., were hardly in the position) but Americans, through their government, did the responsible thing.


Beyond that, this talk about "race" and race relations without talking about the power dynamics in the relationship is bs.

Also, there is no America where there are nothing but individuals. Families, businesses, organizations, political parties, e.g. are example of collective entities. This European affair with individualism is a weird type of escapism.

No, I disagree. With your glib comment, it is only you who exemplify an abandoning of the race dialogue. Whatever you think about Scribbler, he did show up and he did talk about race. It is an outright lie to say that he that he "won't" talk about race.

I prefer the company of a "Scribbler" to any snide hypocrites anyday.

Why, because you say so? Because people did not bow down and agree with Ceci? Some dialogue.

I see no reason to believe that. Again, this is purely just a "because I said so" line of reasoning.

Please specify which statement Scribbler did not qualify.

It seems to be that the contributions of yourself amount to:

Blacks saying there is no dialogue. When whites talk and do not agree, blacks say that this is proof of no dialogue.

You'll have to forgive my sweeping generalizations. I'm just using the same logic that you seem to approve of.

This seems like bull to me. You say Scribbler was "trying to deny reality." Oh well please forgive us Apollo, deity of truth. I did not know we had a god in the house who knew all the truth. So when you can unilaterally define what is reality, does that mean that you've contradicted your espoused interest in dialogue? Seems less like a dialogue and more like indoctrination.

I think you miss Scribbler's argument which is based on individualism. None of the above addresses that.

I don't agree that black people are completely free from blame and responsibility, if that is what this comment is supposed to mean. The situations of the African-American community is very complicated, but if you are saying blacks are blameless for all their woes, then that's just wrong.

There's been nothing bs about this talk. Just BS condescension. Feel free to move past condescension into substance anytime.

I don't agree with how polarized you view this. You seem to see the debate as either one extreme (total individualism or total collective responsibility). I don't agree with either extreme. I also don't see how you call this a "European affair" as Scrib is American.


WEB

What has racism to do with free thinking and a 'classically liberal society?

Sorry, everyone. The last few days were quite busy for me. Now, I have a little time to answer the latest comments on this topic.



Thank you very much for saying this. The last thing I would want is to have a full blown argument when race could be discussed with analysis. However, depending on which cultural values at play is the question here.


I believe that there should be an acknowledgement of "past injustices". That is all right. However, when white people begin to bring up the notion of "guilt", then they are missing the boat entirely when dealing with this topic.

For people to have an honest discussion about race, we have to put the cards on the table. That means having an open, non-accusatory mind. I don't think mentioning past injustices is equal to an accusation. These things happened.
And they need to be talked about instead of "shoving it into the past" and "forgetting about them". When people forget about the past, these injustices creep up again in somewhat vicious and ruthless ways.

That's why we can't forget them--unless we all end up being the next generation of "Good Germans" to watch social injustice without doing anything about it because we have our heads in the sand.

That's a hard one.

First of all, I don't think that people can completely "move on" from aspects of history. There are always events that trigger the past without any suppression. That's why people always have to have to know their history and remember events in order to read present situations--especially when we scrutinize our politicians.

Secondly, I think that white people have to stop with the notion of guilt and focus more on developing a conscience about non-white people. As long as they focus on the issue of guilt, they will feel resentful and blame a person of color each time the past is discussed. Secondly, they have to develop working on identifying with people of color instead of condemning them. They can talk about all day long how they know the neighbors of color, but if they do not know how to identify with them beyond just knowing they're there, what good does it do?

It's like I said to Scribbler: it's fine that he has a Black neighbor who has a better job that he does. But has he actually sat down and talked with that neighbor? Has he asked his neighbor how they feel in certain racial situations and what his neighbor thinks about race in America? Now that's the difference here. For all I know, Scribbler might have had this conversation with his neighbor. But, I think that if white people asked more questions along this line instead of focusing on "blanket statements" we might get somehere.

I also think that white people have to have an honest accounting for slavery. They have to stop thinking in terms of blame and really study it in all its permutations. Maybe they might visit the Museum of Tolerance site. Or perhaps they might actually bring themselves to see the pictures and faces of slavery and really get in touch with why Black folk would want to make an accounting of this time.

Then, the talks about race would be different instead of power grabs and catch-22's.

I'm all for a productive conversation where there isn't a whole lot of resentment. I would rather deal with ideas here.

There's more along these lines later, if I can think of more ways to answer your question. Again, I thank you for being understanding.

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Ceci's News and Views Forum

German history is still somehow real, as a German I still meet survivors as well as perpetrators. In addition, there was the term "collective guilt", I don't agree with that term, but it led at least to education at school, to come away from the individual level and to see the power dynamics, so topics Jensen is addressing for example.

As pessimistic as that sounds, I would like to hold out hope that people would talk about race. However, I find that the Americans that will not speak on this are the ones who have fears about racial identity and color. These are the people who "don't see a color" and call it racist everytime someone mentions "color" or "race". The people who espouse "color-blind" theory are the ones who have a big problem with race-related talks because they dismiss it outright without trying to tackle it.

I agree with you. Scribbler didn't take me seriously, no matter how many other posters have patted him on the back. And I'm not surprised. It's not indicative of all white people. There are white people I know who are wonderful, smart, witty, compassionate and wise.

But there are the "Rush Limbaugh"-listening type of White males who feel beseiged by multiculturalism that are the problem. Because they feel that women and people of color are encroaching on the way they do things, they make it their mission to dismiss, subjugate and prounce "victimhood" on any expression of diversity that is out there.

He's not the first.

Usually you can tell that you're not going to get anywhere when white people start to bring up "blanket statements" and "accusing you of racism" instead of trying to understand what you say. Then, it comes down to "re-writing" the parameters of the topic of race to suit their temperment instead of yours. It's part of the "superiority" that seems to get pushed whenever there are race discussions between people of color and the dominant culture.


That's the sad thing.

I'm a veteran of race-related talks. Some I've had turned out beautifully when people actually focus on the issues instead of trying to prove "who's racist" and "who isn't". Others, I've had were just like this in which there are white people who are patronizing and condescending in their language to the point of dismissing everything that you have to say. Instead, they use the conversation as a way of making themselves feel better and the person of color feeling worse.

And talking about victimization, white people who operate along these lines portray themselves as "victims" while the people of color who are talking about social disparity are the "persecutors". And then, other white people comfort the white person in question who conveys condescending talk while the person of color is held up to be the bad guy. As along as white people come out on top, then others might be convinced that it always wrong when a person of color brings up race. And some white people involved subtly see it that way and help to confront the person of color in order to silence him or her. That's when race-related talks become unproductive and unsatisfying.

But to the white folk that bond together over supressing some "unhappy" things about race, it's a small victory for them to dismiss what the person of color says and reenforce their own ideals.

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Ceci's News and Views Forum