How would you fix education? - Page 3 - Political Forum

choclosteve · #21 (**permalink**) 04-29-2008, 10:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrnumbersman

Education has its real problems. Start with the 10,000 pound elephant in the room. Get rid of NCLB. Right now, by the year 2014 all students will be required to be on grade level. That sounds great but it will NEVER happen. Let's be real. If all students are performing at grade level then the standard is set too low.

Also, depending who is in charge of the White House and Congress, NCLB is going to bring about some drastic changes. 1) Education will become nationalized and everything will be dictated from a national level or 2) All students will have complete choice to pick the school of their liking.

Look at the problems with the students today and address those problems. The next biggest thing in the room is the drop-out rate which hovers around 30%. Address the problems with these students and you will solve most of the problems with education. It does not require more money all of the time. It does not require busting up teachers' unions all of the time.

As I have stated before, when the state of Indiana looks at 3rd grade reading scores and builds prison cells based on that, then something is desperately wrong. While that is a great use of statistics it is also very telling about what happens when a kid can't read by the time he is in 3rd grade. Several other states do the same thing.

Someone suggested we get rid of electives. Why? What is the purpose of getting rid of an automotive technology lab (an elective) that trains students for the world of work? I had a student last year that graduated from high school, went to work at a large service department making $60,000. Eighteen years old making $60,000 the honest way. He is finishing trade school in May and will be making in excess of $90,000. Nineteen years old, doing what he enjoys and will be making $90,000 the honest way.

Why get rid of art? I had a student who took 4 years of art in high school. She received an art scholarship to a school in Florida. Graduated two years ago and is into an advanced form of graphic arts. Not sure of the details. She is making a comfortable living ($60,000+).

Why get rid of culinary arts (another elective)? How about metals? What about band or orchestra? Mythology?

I, too, have problems with certain courses that are more directed at behavior (ie sex ed, etc) that academic courses that many consider electives.

Look at how we are educating students now. Boys comprise the largest segment of the drop-outs. Ask yourself why then you will see that the way we teach boys needs to change. We don't lose in middle and high school. We lose them in the 5th grade or earlier. Most elementary teachers are female. Kindergarten skills are now more verbal than ever before. Boys are not as developed verbally as girls. So guess what? They become "behavior" problems because the female teachers want the boys to act like the girls. For goodness sake they are boys but now the common "sex change" is to drug them with Ritalin so they become more compliant, more like girls. If they don't get drugged then they go to the office because the female teachers do not know how to teach boys.

Before you say I am off my rocker, think about it. Check the stats. Check the number of referrals to special education. Check the number of discipline problems that are referred to the office.

Good post. When we year after year turn down school budget requests that result in the elimination of electives and increase class size, we are ruining our schools. We cannot attract male elementary teachers with budget cuts. We get what we pay for. Most educators are dedicated to their professions. We owe them our support. Education is the best investment we can make

LiveUninhibited · #22 (**permalink**) 04-30-2008, 03:05 AM

Quote:

Boys comprise the largest segment of the drop-outs. Ask yourself why then you will see that the way we teach boys needs to change. We don't lose in middle and high school. We lose them in the 5th grade or earlier. Most elementary teachers are female. Kindergarten skills are now more verbal than ever before. Boys are not as developed verbally as girls. So guess what? They become "behavior" problems because the female teachers want the boys to act like the girls. For goodness sake they are boys but now the common "sex change" is to drug them with Ritalin so they become more compliant, more like girls. If they don't get drugged then they go to the office because the female teachers do not know how to teach boys.

If anybody has some data/studies on this, I think it would really help propel this conversation somewhere. When you wrote that boys drop out more, my first thought was video games, not female teachers.

However, I do think video games could be modified for educational and constructive purposes, which may make school more interesting for any kind of kid.

mrnumbersman · #23 (**permalink**) 04-30-2008, 10:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LiveUninhibited

If anybody has some data/studies on this, I think it would really help propel this conversation somewhere. When you wrote that boys drop out more, my first thought was video games, not female teachers.

However, I do think video games could be modified for educational and constructive purposes, which may make school more interesting for any kind of kid.

Check out the National Center for Education Statistics or the National Dropout Prevention Center. Also, there are several articles in popular magazines about this very problem. A lot of my research also comes from refereed journals but I can't give those links out. They don't look too kindly upon that. Something about copyright infringement.

dahermit · #24 (**permalink**) 04-30-2008, 10:23 PM

I would hire a group of sociologists, psychologists, statisticians, to study the problem and determine what the causes of the failure of public schools actually are, without the popular assumptions like blaming the teacher's unions, etc.

Questions like: Why do the worst of the students always change when subject to the rigorous discipline of a boot camp environment?, should be explored. What are the definitive factors present that determine a bad school as opposed to a good school?

After the real reasons for poor schools or student behavior have been identified, make recommendations that could possibly work.

Most opinions of persons not in the school environment are commonly misconceptions built upon misinformation.

mrnumbersman · #25 (**permalink**) 05-01-2008, 09:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dahermit

I would hire a group of sociologists, psychologists, statisticians, to study the problem and determine what the causes of the failure of public schools actually are, without the popular assumptions like blaming the teacher's unions, etc.

Questions like: Why do the worst of the students always change when subject to the rigorous discipline of a boot camp environment?, should be explored. What are the definitive factors present that determine a bad school as opposed to a good school?

After the real reasons for poor schools or student behavior have been identified, make recommendations that could possibly work.

Most opinions of persons not in the school environment are commonly misconceptions built upon misinformation.

Well, the problems have been studied ad nauseum. I know, I've read plenty of it. Much of it is right on the point. Most of it points to a few key ideas and the reasons for students not learning, which is different from failure. It is important to make that distinction.

Some of the key ideas that usually come from these studies:
1) Educational level of the mother correlates to the achievement of students
2) The number of conversational interactions with adults and the vocabulary of young students has a direct tie in to the ability to learn in kindergarten.
3) The number of books that are available in the home has an effect on learning.
4) Exposure to large amounts of television viewing affects learning
5) Amount of un-structured free play time affects learning
6) Amount of sleep affects cognitive abilities and growth

The reason I listed these is simple. They start at home. Are schools culpable? To some extent they are. But, these are simple things that can be remedied except for #1.
1) But mothers can do a number of things to compensate for lack of education.
2) Parents need to have conversations with their children and build their vocabulary.
3) Parents need to buy books. My two sons' favorite place to go is Barnes and Noble. We spend $15 a month on books for them. We pick up cheap books at yard sales, etc. These things are available to most people in the US.
4) Turn off the damn TV and go to number 5.
5) Children need supervised but un-structured play time. They become more creative. They interact. They argue and then solve their problems. They play cowboys and indians and hide-and-go-seek.
6) After letting them play then put them to bed early. What in the world is going on at 9 pm that a 4-year-old needs to be up?

honestiago · #26 (**permalink**) 05-07-2008, 03:20 PM

1. Quit teaching electives. Only the basics are needed.

So, stop teaching music, art, athletics, debate, mechanics, culinary arts, dance, choir...and so on. Thank you. I've always wanted a school without a soul. These are the reasons SOME kids come to school. There is also such a thing as a well-rounded education. But have no fear--I know that, in Texas, the more "advanced" your degree plan, the fewer electives you are allowed to take. So, our best students have fewer choices.

2. No more self esteem, earth day, sex ed.
"Self Esteem" does not appear in the course catalogue. I think most schools are merely trying to respect their students. However, I totally agree that self esteem is overrated. There was a study conducted among students around the world concerning their performance on a history exam. American students placed in the top percentile of feeling good about performance, but the bottom percentile of how they actually scored (reminds me of how so many of us run around talking about how great we are, but refuse to recognize our country's flaws and mistakes0.

We don't stop for Earth Day where I teach.

Sex Ed, if it must be addressed, should be addressed in its totality (no more abstinence only education). Otherwise, you don't give students the full breadth of information, and the ability to make informed choices.

3. Make all tests non-multiple choice and make all tests explanatory.

Non-MC tests are much more subjective than MC tests. I don't understand what you mean by "explanatory." Do you mean, "hands on?"

4. Get rid of teachers union.
We don't have unions in my state. But we should be allowed to. Since when is it wrong for people to unionize? That's the one defense lower wage earners have against big business and big government. You're asking people to forfeit a right to assemble and petition. Seems wrong.

5. Make it all local.
The only problem you run into is that lower income neighborhoods fall farther and farther behind. In business, compeition works, because you can cater to a consumer. In education, you shouldn't be catering to the masses by giving them what they want. You have to give them what they need. We just don't agree on what everyone needs, from a basics standpoint.

6. Vouchers.
Could work, I guess. I'd have to see results on a wide basis.

Dr House · #27 (**permalink**) 05-07-2008, 03:40 PM

Quote:

We don't have unions in my state. But we should be allowed to. Since when is it wrong for people to unionize? That's the one defense lower wage earners have against big business and big government. You're asking people to forfeit a right to assemble and petition. Seems wrong.

The big problem is that unions within public service do not force raises from the pockets of big business, they get their raises from your stolen tax money. Money that you can't opt out of paying. I have no objection to unions in the private sector. Market forces make them redundant eventually anyway. My big problem is with unions within the public sector.

-Dr House