Originally Posted by mrnumbersman

Having done a bit of doctoral research about student achievement, Asian students generally fare better if they are 1st generation American. Second generation and beyond American citizen and they do not fare nearly as well. Actually, their scores are not much better than American kids.

Much to be said about the American culture and attitudes towards education, particularly secondary education. There are a number of issues that are in play here but American education is not a as pitiful as everyone likes to paint it. There are also a number of areas in which American education could improve.

Originally Posted by TeaSea

If it's not as pitiful as they say it is, then why are the average number of days in school per year shrinking? I If am not mistaken, the number of hours per day has also decreased.
Why are so many of the school buildings falling apart?
Why are there EVER 40 students in a high school math class - so many that some have to sit on radiators and others share a chair?
What about Art? For example, not so long ago, most any public school student had the opportunity to learn to play a musical instrument in school. That seems to be a lot less universal now.
And Science? Without foreign students, American universities would have to discontinue many of their high tech/science and engineering programs due to lack of enough participation. And this is where so many of the best jobs of the future are!

IMO, teachers do work that is every bit as intellectually demanding as that done by doctors. They should be vetted by every bit as rigorous training and education, and PAID as well too.

Is there a higher national security issue? I don't think there is even a close second.

Originally Posted by mrnumbersman

Having done a bit of doctoral research about student achievement, Asian students generally fare better if they are 1st generation American. Second generation and beyond American citizen and they do not fare nearly as well. Actually, their scores are not much better than American kids.

Originally Posted by Change

The Asians are incredibly smart.

Originally Posted by emptypepsi

Which Asians? East Asians? South East Asians? Must be the "model minority" type of statement here.

Asian-Americans are a model minority.

There have been differences between the types of immigrants in terms of their respective success in the country. I would be more clear in your statements.

Also, beware of steryotypes, sir. Even if it seems to be a "positive" steryotype, they are problematic in trying to think about a situation rationally. Also, at times, positive steryotypes can carry not so positive implications.

Take hispanics for an example (at least in the United States): The prevalent steryotype these days in a positive sense is one of a hard-working, back-breaking menial worker who does jobs others won't do. This has led to issues in the community where they are assumed to be menial workers only, and not as up to performing jobs such as office or upper management work. Positive statements can inadvertently cause not so positive implications.

Just some food for thought.

Originally Posted by TeaSea

If it's not as pitiful as they say it is, then why are the average number of days in school per year shrinking? I If am not mistaken, the number of hours per day has also decreased.

Originally Posted by TeaSea

Why are so many of the school buildings falling apart?

Originally Posted by TeaSea

Why are there EVER 40 students in a high school math class - so many that some have to sit on radiators and others share a chair?

Originally Posted by TeaSea

What about Art? For example, not so long ago, most any public school student had the opportunity to learn to play a musical instrument in school. That seems to be a lot less universal now.

Originally Posted by TeaSea

And Science? Without foreign students, American universities would have to discontinue many of their high tech/science and engineering programs due to lack of enough participation. And this is where so many of the best jobs of the future are!

Originally Posted by TeaSea

IMO, teachers do work that is every bit as intellectually demanding as that done by doctors. They should be vetted by every bit as rigorous training and education, and PAID as well too.

Is there a higher national security issue? I don't think there is even a close second.

Originally Posted by mrnumbersman

You are mistaken - most school districts are maintaining the number days and hours per day for schools. Many of them are increasing that requirement. There are a few that are reducing that requirement, mostly due to financial constraints.



Deferred maintenance - Read American School and University. Biggest problem facing physical facilities - lack of money for needed maintenance. Schools built in the 1950s and 1960s were not built to last, only to accommodate the burgeoning population. School districts were trying to take the cheapest route possible at that time and did not practice life-cycle costing.



Growing school districts which have a small tax base face this problem. Lack of teachers for schools in high poverty or high crime areas. Poor administrative planning. There are a number of reasons. These are the exceptions rather than the rule. The National Center for Educational Statistics will answer most of your questions concerning class sizes.



I agree, the arts are being passed over in favor of "academics" because of No Child Left Behind. Blame George Bush and Ted Kennedy for that one. I do.



Is this question directed to the higher education institutes or elementary and secondary education institutes? The biggest problem with science education in elementary and secondary education is the complete lack of emphasis in primary grades. Follow that up with the poor teaching that exists for science in elementary school and you have complete lack of interest. Also, science education is the most expensive academic area to teach if done properly with labs and equipment for experiments.

At the post-secondary level, you are correct about the foreign students. Most of the advanced science students in graduate school come from India, China, Japan, and Korea.



I won't argue that one bit. I taught mathematics for 15 years at the high school and college level. I, too, wish I had been paid like a doctor. But, simple economics prevents that. That is also why a number of highly qualified people who would like to teach do not go into the field. It is hard to come out of college with a BS in physics and go into teaching for $35,000 a year when IBM offers an introductory salary of $80,000 with promises of raises over the next 3 years. It does not take a rocket scientist to figure that one out.

With that being said, you are correct- education is a national security issue and believe me when I say that thousands of people at all levels of education take that very seriously. This is not something that will be fixed overnight. Many people say dump it and start over. Right, I have ocean front property for sale in North Dakota, too. What are you going to replace it with? Private school? Vouchers? Privatize education? Do the research, don't read 2 articles from the Philadelphia Inquirer that says the Edison Schools are wonderful. Vouchers in Milwaukee work to a certain extent. What they don't tell you to often are the other problems that are not being addressed.