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  #181 (permalink)  
Old 12-11-2007, 02:53 AM
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From my understanding, it's widely accepted that when anyone claims certainty in their belief, the onus of proof is upon them, regardless of whether they are theist or atheist. In certain schools of thought, only the Agnostic would not have that burden, because they do not claim certainty.

This is the first time I've seen someone try to argue that only the believers have the burden of proof, and not the Atheist. Sounds more like biased rhetoric than anything else.
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  #182 (permalink)  
Old 12-11-2007, 03:02 AM
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Originally Posted by panteth4h2o View Post

This is the first time I've seen someone try to argue that only the believers have the burden of proof, and not the Atheist. Sounds more like biased rhetoric than anything else.
Not at all

We don't believe in Dragons, we say they don't exist
We don't believe in giant space aliens underground, we say they don't exist
we don't believe in faeries, we say they don't exist

We have no proof that any of this does NOT exist, nor do we have any proof it does. It's safe to assume something doesn't exist unless proven otherwise. Why is the god question any different.

The assumption is key, and it makes sense to assume so.
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  #183 (permalink)  
Old 12-11-2007, 04:34 AM
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Originally Posted by Caltex View Post
Not at all

We don't believe in Dragons, we say they don't exist
We don't believe in giant space aliens underground, we say they don't exist
we don't believe in faeries, we say they don't exist
Yes, but I think the question at hand is whether or not what we see around us is enough proof of whether or not a Higher Power exists or existed at one time. You are going to get different answers as to who or what that specific Deity is, when referring to a Higher Power. But many people can't accept that the complex order of the Universe and life itself is the result of an accident or mindless random chance.

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Originally Posted by Caltex View Post
We have no proof that any of this does NOT exist, nor do we have any proof it does. It's safe to assume something doesn't exist unless proven otherwise. Why is the god question any different.
According to MSN Encarta, one of their definitions for assume is this:

1. suppose something: to accept that something is true without checking or confirming it.

You have admitted to assuming that there is no God. I have no problem with that. But to do so doesn't mean that you are any more logical than the believer, though you might argue otherwise. That's more of a personal opinion than anything else. Because some people will argue that when one claims there is no God, they are claiming to have absolute knowledge that He doesn't exist. As human beings, we don't have absolute knowledge, so we have to rely upon faith when making absolute claims. If you are an Atheist, you are claiming with absolute certainty that God doesn't exist, while also admitting that you are basing this on assumption. As a result, many will argue that, like the believer, you too are relying upon faith to draw your conclusion.

Many will say that only the Agnostic doesn't rely upon faith.
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  #184 (permalink)  
Old 12-11-2007, 06:26 AM
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The Big Bang did occur. There is proof. They can still detect the heat from the big bang. The explosion of the Big Bang created helium and hydrogen. The helium and hydrogen clumped together through gravity (curvatures of space-time.) Because of the pressure on these super massive spheres of helium and hydrogen nuclear fusion ignited. In the center of these super massive stars it became so hot that fusion of atoms occurred and this created all the heavy elements that created everything you see. The super massive stars exploded (supernova) and spread the elements about. These elements again clumped together to form stars, planets, and moons. Through evolution we came into existence.

The universe is 14 billion years old. It is not infinite. The earth is 5 billion years old. It is not infinite. Nothing is infinite! Time did not exist till during and after the big bang, so to talk of time before it is silly…remember time and space is the same thing. No space = no time. The universe, like everything else, will end. It’s called the Big RIP, where every single atom in the universe will simultaneously rip apart. Big Rip - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia .

How did the big bang occur? M-theory: M-theory - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia .

Does the Big Bang disprove or prove the existence of god? No, neither. If anything I think that it may prove the existence of god because where did the primeval atom come from? What is the universe contained in?

To believe in religion on the other hand is just foolish in my opinion. If anything we should worship the stars like the ancients since they are the life bringers and life sustainers…and I guess ultimately the life enders.
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  #185 (permalink)  
Old 12-11-2007, 06:37 AM
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Originally Posted by TitusCicero View Post

Does the Big Bang disprove or prove the existence of god? No, neither. If anything I think that it may prove the existence of god because where did the primeval atom come from? What is the universe contained in?
This is a good point, and one I like to accentuate when it is posted. Scientific theories are there to seek the truth from all pertinent evidence on hand. If it happens to contradict something religious, that is usually viewed as an after-the-fact product, not as the end they are trying to reach. Science should not be concerned with whether or not they are accidentally disproving anything religious. The Big Bang is just there to explain what we know about the universe from an empirical standpoint, not explain God.

However, I could I could have missed the memo that said all scientists were galvanizing into a secret all-powerful community to destroy religion.
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  #186 (permalink)  
Old 12-11-2007, 06:53 AM
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Originally Posted by Ygorl View Post
...
Some see their very existence as proof. You want God to give you a performance of some kind. And maybe God HAS. It wasn't to your specifications, so you choose to ignore it.

Believing there IS no God without any proof, makes IT faith based as well.

There is, there isn't there IS there isn't ...

Prove it.

No, YOU prove it.

No, YOU prove it !


Do you see how this gets silly and goes nowhere ?
...

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Originally Posted by Caltex View Post
Like I've posted a million times, the burden of proof is on the believers in existence. Doubt, unless proven, like we do with everything else. There shouldn't be a double standard for this, yet you keep applying one.

"Believing there IS no God without any proof, makes IT faith based as well. " I see no proof in a god, so I will continue to doubt its existence. I don't doubt the existence because of "faith". I doubt it because I see no cold hard facts. If I saw any evidence I'd happily change my mind. Showing a person with "faith" in god evidence that he doesn't exist does nothing, because they believe in him based on no evidence already.
...
The standard is the very fact that you and I exist; that we each share a cogito, sole, conscience or ultimate perception and live in a confined and yet infinite space; that all matter and energy in the universe is made out of the same stuff and both are never destroyed or added. We both seem to live in a universe that appears to be awesomely gigantic in size yet is almost completely empty: (99.9999999999999% of all atoms are void of matter.) We all perceive the universe with something that feels transcendent of this world, of which we have no evidence of and yet can experience.

If you read this entire article:

Future Hi

…and then watch “The Life of Brian”, I think you and I might be on the same page or at least at an understanding.
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  #187 (permalink)  
Old 12-11-2007, 06:57 AM
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Originally Posted by emptypepsi View Post
This is a good point, and one I like to accentuate when it is posted. Scientific theories are there to seek the truth from all pertinent evidence on hand. If it happens to contradict something religious, that is usually viewed as an after-the-fact product, not as the end they are trying to reach. Science should not be concerned with whether or not they are accidentally disproving anything religious. The Big Bang is just there to explain what we know about the universe from an empirical standpoint, not explain God.

However, I could I could have missed the memo that said all scientists were galvanizing into a secret all-powerful community to destroy religion.
Yes, actually the creator of the Big Bang theory was a priest! Monsignor Georges Henri Joseph Éduard Lemaître (crazy name.) Georges Lemaître - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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  #188 (permalink)  
Old 12-11-2007, 07:00 AM
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Originally Posted by Seer View Post
...conscience or ultimate perception and live in a confined and yet infinite space; that all matter and energy in the universe is made out of the same stuff and both are never destroyed or added...
I think you just completely missed my post about the universe being finite and the big RIP.
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  #189 (permalink)  
Old 12-11-2007, 07:44 AM
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Originally Posted by TitusCicero View Post
I think you just completely missed my post about the universe being finite and the big RIP.
Sorry, perhaps I wasn’t very clear. I was referring to the space to which matter seems to pass though. Unless you have seen the edge of the universe, I don’t see how anyone would know that this aspect of the universe is finite.

But yes, matter and energy itself is finite.

And yes, I did miss your post. I was busy reading this article:

Future Hi
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  #190 (permalink)  
Old 12-11-2007, 11:25 PM
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Sorry, perhaps I wasn’t very clear. I was referring to the space to which matter seems to pass though. Unless you have seen the edge of the universe, I don’t see how anyone would know that this aspect of the universe is finite.

But yes, matter and energy itself is finite.

And yes, I did miss your post. I was busy reading this article:

Future Hi
Considering space-time is curved I guess you have a piont because one would be unable to reach the border because they would be going in circles. But that border does exist.
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