Maybe you should read between the lines of that Bible quote. What He is saying is that if you are a chosen Son of God, you will get to Heaven, that is the essence of that quote. If you refuse to believe in a place called Heaven, then don't call it intolerance if a book says you can't make it there because you don't believe in it. But then again, every religion stipulated that you had to be a part of it to reap the afterlife benefits, so don't just go criticising the Abrahamic religions because you found one quote in the Bible.

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why is that people who believe in god always use him to explain everything. its gods will, or plan. was the universe created by the big bang who knows. but i find it more believable than a creator created every little thing in the universe

Yes, people have been warring and killing one another for MANY different reasons. People.

People consistently do stupid things. Like killing other people over religion. Like killing little kids because they just molested them and don't want them to be able to talk about it .... many many dumb ass things.

It's what people do with themselves, their beleifs or certain items (guns, knives etc.) that kill others.

The one common factor here is the HUMAN factor. Humans consistently screw things up and do nasty things to one another for A MULTITUDE of reasons, very few of which are good.

So lets not blame the religion, the gun, the knife ... the whatever. People become misguided and get "stuck on stupid" and become dangerous pretty regularly.

That's PEOPLE.

That atheism was/is a PART of. It obviously did play a part. Its explicit goal was to create a secular, atheist utopia liberated from religion. They specifically targeted churches, killed the clergy and the priests and persecuted the believers.

At least in PART because of their atheism.

So the reason was what ? The ANTI-religion of atheism ? Like I said above, it was at least in PART because of their atheism. That they became "stuck on stupid" and become dangerous WAS due to their being human. I'll give you that point. The reason BEHIND how they got "stuck on stupid" was the same reason(s) for the RELIGIOUS wars of history.

Again we're seeing atheism and religion fitting into the same category of faith like belief systems aren't we ?

No they aren't. They ARE past Christian MISDEEDS though. Just as genocide is a past misdeed of atheism.

Persecution of heretics and heathens is a "Christian tradition" no more than mass murder and genocide is an "atheist tradition."

Your understanding of Christianity is a bit off. Some Christians WILL tell you such things that anyone not a member of the church is going to hell but they don't know that to be true at all. Many Christians do not say such things because many Christians aren't comfortable assuming the role of Gods mouthpeice. Those that DO are intolerant (and misguided) PEOPLE that comfort themselves by beleiving they are true Christians.

Just another example of misguided people ruining what CAN be a very good thing. Happens a LOT.

People are the cause. Misguided screwball PEOPLE. Sure, they can do it in the name of religion. They can do it in the name of many things.

Intolerance isn't what 'founded' ANY religion though. The basic questions "Where did we come from ?" and "Why are we here ?" founded them. How religions and people answer(ed) those questions is where intolerance comes into play.

Lets look at what books like "The End of Faith", "The God of Delusion", and "God Is Not Great." by atheists who attack religion using some pretty intolerant statements and positions.

Christianity is irrational, it's inconsistent with modern science, it's based on blind faith, blind faith leads to fanaticism, fanaticism leads to violence, religion is responsible for the great murders and crimes of history.

Just as intolerant as the most INTOLERANT crazy, fundamentalist Christian !

Beleif in a reason and a creator of EVERYTHING is much different than ridiculous beleifs in such fairyland creatures that anyone can dream up in their imagination. And even write neat books about :-) Everyone knows there are no "hobbits" because they are the admitted creation of a fantasy writer. People that are delusional believe they can fly sometimes and even jump to their deaths from high areas to prove it. They're proven wrong unfortunately for the rest of us.

Comparing beleif in God to beleif in dragons and/or hobbits etc. shows poor judgement due to the obvious philosophical and theologic disimilarities. They simply aren't comparable. Though its nice and convenient to try to use such things to belittle people who beleive in God, in the end it doesn't work. Other than underlining your own hate or extreme dislike for religions.

Agreed.

And why would men feel a need to respect and honor one another if there may not be a judge one stands before after ones death ? For many of THIS is what keeps them acting decent.

I'm not solely blaming atheists. People. People mess things up. Atheism doesn't seem to have helped in any way.

The universe is too awesome to be made by accident.

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I must disagree here.

Whether or not the 'creator' of the story admits that it is fake or not should not be the focus here. The focus is on who has the burden of proof. Those claiming the belief in a God share the burden of proof, as there is no evidence as of yet that he exists. Those on the other side of the fence are not denying it so much as they are simply saying "We see no proof, so why should we believe this?" In many ways it is just as valid as asking "Why should I believe that a dragon exists?"

If Tolkein wanted to, he could have written all of the books he did on Middle Earth (with the complete works and history it has) and passed it off as the history of the world (god knows it is detailed enough). If he got his hordes of followers to believe it was so, and never admitted it as a work of fiction, should we still believe it, though we have zero proof of the existence of dragons, dwarves, trolls, elves, or walking trees? It would be up to those making the claim to convince that they existed. The burden of proof is on them.

And don't get me wrong - I'm no atheist myself. I'm currently pigeonholed an agnostic, bordering on deist tendencies. I believe that if there is a God then the truest way to explore it is through ones own reasoning. But, that is just me after all.

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"The saddest aspect of life right now is that science gathers knowledge faster than society gathers wisdom."
Isaac Asimov

Actually, the link that he provided points out plenty of inconsistencies in nearly every book of the bible (that is, The Skeptics Annotated Bible), not to mention the Koran and the book of Mormon. He used one quote to illustrate his point, but his source shows countless examples.

The problem I think he has, and one that I myself have with religions as a way to get to God, is that many find it hard to believe that with a creator as complex and beyond our capacity of understanding like a God, it is hard to believe that man could nail the "precise" path to God on paper in such a "sure-fire" way.

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"The saddest aspect of life right now is that science gathers knowledge faster than society gathers wisdom."
Isaac Asimov

I've actually found around a thousand preposterous excerpts in the bible. I just posted one of them. the skeptics annotated bible highlights most of them.

I'll find a few more clear cut examples of intolerance if it helps.

"And he looked this way and that way, and when he saw that there was no man, he slew the Egyptian, and hid him in the sand." Exodus 2:12
God sanctioned murder anyone?

"And he that blasphemeth the name of the LORD, he shall surely be put to death, and all the congregation shall certainly stone him: as well the stranger, as he that is born in the land, when he blasphemeth the name of the Lord, shall be put to death." Leviticus 24:16
Kill the infidel!!!!!

I've heard alot of this before, and I've even heard such things put forth as "innaccuracies" by learned people, such as my College Writing Proffessor (). Since I don't actually know the context of the second one, I'll explain the first one:

It's the actions of Moses. Where do you find in that quote that it was sanctioned by God?


Quite simply put, it seems to me that it is irrelevant what verses you post. You've posted them when you've taken them out of context and failed to understand them. Don't take that as an insult, it isn't. I'm not going to claim to understand the Koran. I have previously and posted up short quotes to show how Islam isn't the religion of peace, but it is more complex than a single verse. In actually studying it I've found that the Koran is a book of peace, and Islam is not a religion of peace.

And if you actually decide to study the Bible and are out looking for God doing bad things, keep one thing in mind: why is God doing this? Is it punishment for disobeying his laws, therefore justice?

The reason why it is possible for God to not have a begining is because he created time when he created the universe. If you can get your mind around that, explain to me how God could have actually been here before the universe if time began when he created the universe.

OK. Burden of proof: there is no proof for the big bang, evolution, et cetera, only good evidence. There is just as much good evidence for the existence of God, with strong logic, and no real loopholes in the evidence.


And your example doesn't compare. An example that would compare is if you and I were walking along the beach and I found a wrist watch that was ticking. I pick it up and say, "someone created this." You respond, "how do you know that someone created that? How do you know that it wasn't always there?" I don't think that I would really need to respond.

What does this even mean? The Theory of Evolution is falsifiable, meaning it can be tested for it's hypothesis and be proven correct. It also means one can dig up 100 million year old cheetah remains tommorow and prove it wrong.

You can do no such thing with religion, only go by what the words written by men say. They can not be tested for validity. There may be philosophical arguments for God, but these are not religious in nature if you mean things like the Ontological Argument, Cosmological, etc. They are seperate from religion. If anything, they are arguments for Deism, which is a seperate cause (one that I tend to side with as opposed to religious ones).

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"The saddest aspect of life right now is that science gathers knowledge faster than society gathers wisdom."
Isaac Asimov