Christian rights - Page 3 - Political Forum

W.E.B. Du Bois · #21 (**permalink**) 10-16-2007, 04:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Izzibeth

I saw a story where a girl was called out and reprimanded for wearing a cross necklace. Also a Muslim student (female) was forbidden to wear her traditional dress (and this one, I am almost positive, was a complaint by Christians who felt it wasn't fair that they couldn't wear a cross but she could wear her clothes.......) because it was religious. Of course, I don't remember where these took place so it could very well have been in some backwater town in Wyoming. ^_~

I'm just wondering if this whole "issue" is the result of the O'Reilly effect. Find a story in one of the thousands of small towns in the USA of someone doing something stupid and present it as a liberal conspiracy to destroy "values."

kjhworld · #22 (**permalink**) 10-16-2007, 04:10 PM

[

Quote:

QUOTE=Izzibeth;93834]What I believe has nothing to do with it.
America was NOT founded by Christians. It was founded by Deists whose #1 priority was to make sure that the country was not run by any particular religion.
Christians are simply angry now because all of the preferential treatment that they had been given
You don't see Buddhist holidays celebrated in public schools. You don't see Hindu phrases printed on our money.

I think that you misunderstand something.
Nowadays, in America people never mind religions, and it is first problem for America.
I don't see well where is the culture christian sauf commercial in there.
In buddhist nations, there are many cermony in their festival.
In India, they have full customs of Hinduism in everywhere all the nation.
But seeing on your people, they lost the style of religious than many the other nations(Arabs moslem nations, Buddist nations/Burma, Nepal, Thiland... , Orthodox in Greek/east Europ, Catholic of Europ, Christian England...Shintoisme in Japan, Hinduisme in India,)
But in America, what do you think of it to your national color of culture?
Strip show, or Jazz, Gays, Gambling, Hollywood, guns, Indians, as like that?

Izzibit!
Your's are lost something important because like you always say everything to deny,
so, what is rest in your country for the valable?
Try to keep yours please, like Europ!
Don't need nerverse, it's not correct.
If you need realy it, take rest. It 'll be better than say nothing help them.

W.E.B. Du Bois · #23 (**permalink**) 10-16-2007, 10:45 PM

Your English is a bit odd, kjh. Where ya from?

kjhworld · #24 (**permalink**) 10-17-2007, 03:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by W.E.B. Du Bois

Your English is a bit odd, kjh. Where ya from?

Hi!

pelkgator · #25 (**permalink**) 10-17-2007, 07:53 AM

The problem with allowing expression of religion via crosses on your neck, or a t-shirt or a prayer is that it calls for expression of theological or philosophical expression by all. If you allow the cross, then you must allow the swastika. Which I am sure most would be against allowing. But they are both an expression of a philosophy/ideal. This also would mean Muslim head wear would not be allowed (this is the part that conflicts me). We should not have overt political expression in public schools, because it can cause unrest as is evidenced by the varying opinions in this post.

Public schools should have fairly strict dress codes, with no political, theological or philosophical expression occurring. If you want to say a silent individual prayer before you eat, then go for it. But group prayers done in the cafeteria is too much in my eyes because it is an overt display of religion which I think is inappropriate in school. School is for learning, and I think that all of these religions should be discussed in social sciences classes, as it was in my public high school. Done, of course, in a neutral manner.

Take all religious expression out of it and practice your religion at home.

Izzibeth · #26 (**permalink**) 10-17-2007, 08:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kjhworld

[

I think that you misunderstand something.
Nowadays, in America people never mind religions, and it is first problem for America.
I don't see well where is the culture christian sauf commercial in there.
In buddhist nations, there are many cermony in their festival.
In India, they have full customs of Hinduism in everywhere all the nation.
But seeing on your people, they lost the style of religious than many the other nations(Arabs moslem nations, Buddist nations/Burma, Nepal, Thiland... , Orthodox in Greek/east Europ, Catholic of Europ, Christian England...Shintoisme in Japan, Hinduisme in India,)
But in America, what do you think of it to your national color of culture?
Strip show, or Jazz, Gays, Gambling, Hollywood, guns, Indians, as like that?

Izzibit!
Your's are lost something important because like you always say everything to deny,
so, what is rest in your country for the valable?
Try to keep yours please, like Europ!
Don't need nerverse, it's not correct.
If you need realy it, take rest. It 'll be better than say nothing help them.

Well, I apologize if I don't completely address your post because, while your English is good, it is a little confusing.

American "culture" is a myriad of others. American "culture" is not Christian. It is the "melting pot". There are some things that have come out of this that are unique to America but it is as a result of having all of these other cultures around. Christianity is not American culture. A Jewish, black atheist would be an example of American culture. Or a half-Native American, half-Chinese Hindu would be another example. America is mixture. America is many religions, many races, many skin colors, many sexualities, many everything (and money, money, money). I am assuming you are saying in your second part that I am too negative. Well.. was that positive enough? I think it's a good thing that America is the way it is in terms of combining the races. I don't think it's in any way perfect or that it is a "working model" yet... but it may get there.

Quote:

Strip show, or Jazz, Gays, Gambling, Hollywood, guns, Indians, as like that?

Are all of these things supposed to be bad? Because besides the guns, I'm not seeing anything negative there.

Agrippina · #27 (**permalink**) 10-17-2007, 09:56 AM

We had a court case here about a girl in the 11th grade who wanted to wear a Hindu nose stud. She and her mother insisted that she had a right to praice her religion according to our constitution, the school a very strict girls' school with a uniform code insisted that jewellery at school was not allowed. This is true at our schools, girls are allowed wristwatches and one small stud per ear only, no bling.
This has now opened the door to all religious symbols being worn to schools and will finally break down the militaristic style of school dress that is enforced here.
I don't have problem with uniforms per se I have a problem with the way that they are enforced.
These pictures give you an idea. Now imagine that we have a majority age at 18. In other words an 18 year old girl can get married without her parents' consent but if she is still in school, this is what she wears every day and in summer the same outfit but with white ankle socks.
I still say I don't have a problem but with this court case, maybe some of this can be relaxed. Believe me there are teachers at these schools who pay more attention to the fact that a girl's hair is tied up than they do to the quality of her work. Or that a boy hasn't had his hair dyed - that's another one - no dyed hair, absolutely no makeup. and no markings on the uniform of anything other than those belonging to the school. They dress like this every day. American schools are allowed to mess with the ties and wear them slightly loose with open collars, not here, its an infraction.

Troianii · #28 (**permalink**) 10-17-2007, 11:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by W.E.B. Du Bois

Doesn't God have more important things to do than cause the opposing team to fumble?

It depends. God could care less about some teams, but apparently he's a big Pats fan.

Anyways, I think that the idea of the post is that many in America have taken the laws, particularly the Constitution, and misinterpreted or twisted it. The Constitution guarantees Freedom of Religion, but it never guarantees Freedom from Religion. I'd say that there's little wrong with opening a football game, a baseball game, or even a school day with public prayer, but it's not like an atrocity has been committed if it hasn't.

LessGovMrPrez · #29 (**permalink**) 10-17-2007, 11:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Izzibeth

And fundamentalist Christians and Muslims have recently gotten "offended" by Halloween (a secular holiday

It is All Saints Day. And it is a religious holiday...lol. It isnt secular....lol. Another lie. I guess Easter, Christmas, oops cant say that sorry Winter Break, are all secular to right?

What I find funny is how people equate seperation of church and state to mean just that. Absolutely no connection. They couldn't be more wrong on that matter. Go read the constitutional convention and what occured there. The seperation of church and state only applies to the form of rule that occured in England and the Church of England. That is the seperation our founders wanted. Not complete seperation from everything God related as most now read it.

Why are people offended when a prayer is said? All a prayer is, is a good will toward those being prayed for. Who is harmed by that? Just another convoluted mentality, that somehow someone saying a prayer is descriminatory toward someone else, or insults someone else.

How much better would the world be if everyone prayed for everyone else in everything they did? Understand, I am not saying you have to be a Christian or join a religion, but just doing something nice or keeping people in their thoughts. How bad can a prayer be really?

I know someone here will go off the map with my comment here, just getting ahead of myself. Whoever that person may be sorry for your misinterpretation of my comment.

Izzibeth · #30 (**permalink**) 10-17-2007, 11:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LessGovMrPrez

It is All Saints Day. And it is a religious holiday...lol. It isnt secular....lol. Another lie. I guess Easter, Christmas, oops cant say that sorry Winter Break, are all secular to right?

A quick search of the history of the holiday would say otherwise:

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Holiday Spot

FROM HERE
Behind the name... Halloween, or the Hallow E'en as they call it in Ireland , means All Hallows Eve, or the night before the 'All Hallows', also called 'All Hallowmas', or 'All Saints', or 'All Souls' Day, observed on November 1. In old English the word 'Hallow' meant 'sanctify'. Roman Catholics, Episcopalians and Lutherians used to observe All Hallows Day to honor all Saints in heaven, known or unknown. They used to consider it with all solemnity as one of the most significant observances of the Church year. And Catholics, all and sundry, was obliged to attend Mass. The Romans observed the holiday of Feralia, intended to give rest and peace to the departed. Participants made sacrifices in honor of the dead, offered up prayers for them, and made oblations to them. The festival was celebrated on February 21, the end of the Roman year. In the 7th century, Pope Boniface IV introduced All Saints' Day to replace the pagan festival of the dead. It was observed on May 13. Later, Gregory III changed the date to November 1. The Greek Orthodox Church observes it on the first Sunday after Pentecost. Despite this connection with the Roman Church, the American version of Halloween Day celebration owes its origin to the ancient (pre-Christian) Druidic fire festival called "Samhain", celebrated by the Celts in Scotland, Wales and Ireland. Samhain is pronounced "sow-in", with "sow" rhyming with cow. In Ireland the festival was known as Samhein, or La Samon, the Feast of the Sun. In Scotland, the celebration was known as Hallowe'en. In Welsh it's Nos Galen-gaeof (that is, the Night of the Winter Calends. According to the Irish English dictionary published by the Irish Texts Society: "Samhain, All Hallowtide, the feast of the dead in Pagan and Christian times, signalizing the close of harvest and the initiation of the winter season, lasting till May, during which troops (esp. the Fiann) were quartered. Faeries were imagined as particularly active at this season. From it the half year is reckoned. also called Feile Moingfinne (Snow Goddess).(1) The Scottish Gaelis Dictionary defines it as "Hallowtide. The Feast of All Soula. Sam + Fuin = end of summer."(2) Contrary to the information published by many organizations, there is no archaeological or literary evidence to indicate that Samhain was a deity. The Celtic Gods of the dead were Gwynn ap Nudd for the British, and Arawn for the Welsh. The Irish did not have a "lord of death" as such. Thus most of the customs connected with the Day are remnants of the ancient religious beliefs and rituals, first of the Druids and then transcended amongst the Roman Christians who conquered them.

While linked with religion in the past as anyone can clearly see... in America it is not a religious holiday. It is a secular holiday. Unless you're going to tell me next that Americans celebrate it as a Celtic holiday and imagine fairies and whatnot on October 31st. November 1st is All Saints Day.

Quote:

What I find funny is how people equate seperation of church and state to mean just that. Absolutely no connection. They couldn't be more wrong on that matter. Go read the constitutional convention and what occured there. The seperation of church and state only applies to the form of rule that occured in England and the Church of England. That is the seperation our founders wanted. Not complete seperation from everything God related as most now read it.

If you can give another definition of "separation", I'm sure people would love to hear it. "Separation of church and state" is quite clear and concise. There is no other way to interpret it. There are a couple of ambiguous phrases in our Constitution and they were written that way for a reason. The founders were not stupid people. They also have some pretty clear-cut phrases in there as well. That is one of them.

Quote:

Why are people offended when a prayer is said? All a prayer is, is a good will toward those being prayed for. Who is harmed by that? Just another convoluted mentality, that somehow someone saying a prayer is descriminatory toward someone else, or insults someone else.

Nobody is offended when a prayer is said at an individual level by students. However, it is not to be endorsed by the school. The school is not an exclusionary body. It is a learning facility. And it is state run. No religions are to be endorsed and no religions are to be given special treatment. It is perfectly acceptable to practice your religion personally and privately (isn't this what you are supposed to be doing anyway? according to your own holy books?) while you are in school. Trying to organize the school around your religion is not acceptable.

Quote:

How much better would the world be if everyone prayed for everyone else in everything they did? Understand, I am not saying you have to be a Christian or join a religion, but just doing something nice or keeping people in their thoughts. How bad can a prayer be really?

The world would most likely be the same as wishing good will for people doesn't affect the outcome either way. And people keep other people in their thoughts without prayer all the time. Like I said, prayer is not a problem on an individual level. Public schools are just not meant to be churches for everyone (or more likely, the majority religion). They are for learning.