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10-10-2006, 06:59 PM
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Lord of entropy
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Huh ?
Any ideas, thoughts opinions about why we and this place we call the universe exists ?
It just IS or is there more TO it ? Thought I'd start it from the very ground up :-) Since there's not of bunch of trolling "intellectuals" to trash it up yet.
Discussions like this CAN be interesting if you don't have some smartass coming in suggesting that you're stupid every two or three posts 
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You cannot control your emotions and be self-seeking and ambitious at the same time.
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10-11-2006, 05:09 AM
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Moderator
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thane
Any ideas, thoughts opinions about why we and this place we call the universe exists ?
It just IS or is there more TO it ? Thought I'd start it from the very ground up :-) Since there's not of bunch of trolling "intellectuals" to trash it up yet.
Discussions like this CAN be interesting if you don't have some smartass coming in suggesting that you're stupid every two or three posts 
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Of all posts, this one could be the most debated. Personally, I believe that organized religion is the work of ambitious men trying to control thoughts, beliefs and actions. To me it is a personal thing that remains personal.
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10-11-2006, 11:41 AM
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Lord of entropy
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For both of you (I'll answer individually next) and all others there is a very cool article in the March 2001 issue of Discover magazine called "Very dark energy. Why is the universe expanding faster and faster ?"
By Karen Wright pgs. 70 - 76
I'll put up some of the text from it if things go in directions that call for it at times. Very interesting and thought provoking read I'd encourage checking out.
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You cannot control your emotions and be self-seeking and ambitious at the same time.
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10-11-2006, 11:50 AM
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If the universe is expanding, would that explain why scientist say it is now shaped like a pill, not circular?
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10-11-2006, 11:51 AM
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Lord of entropy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by W.E.B. Du Bois
Hmmm, I've covered this one in a thread on the last forum. I say that people's existence (as well as everything else) is a result of the random nature of the universe. Lifeforms adapt the best they can to their environment.
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There's definitely a balance though. The universe isn't completely random. Matter and energy hold a pretty fine and not understood balance.
Quote:
Originally Posted by W.E.B. Du Bois
After the big bang, several collisions between asteroids and the moon (forming the earth), the cooling down of the earth, two different sets of dinosaurs (and two asteroids that killed them both) and after about 10 or so more primitive forms of humans, then came us. We arose out of chance, and we could be eliminated out of chance in just the same random way (by another asteroid).
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Very possible. Possible that we evolved the way you and many descibe. There are still many questions though and holes in the theory. It seems the most likely way, but without being able to step beyond the bounds of time and observe we'll never really know. The saying "the truth is stranger than fiction" comes to mind for some reason. Maybe the "fiction is stranger than the truth". Of course then we'll argue til death about what the fiction is and what the truth is LOL
Interesting things to think about. We humans, we don't like ignorance DO we 
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You cannot control your emotions and be self-seeking and ambitious at the same time.
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10-11-2006, 12:34 PM
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Lord of entropy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CHUQ
If the universe is expanding, would that explain why scientist say it is now shaped like a pill, not circular?
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This is a little bit. There's a LOT more to the article:
Discover, March 2001, "Very dark energy. Why is the universe expanding faster and faster ?", By Karen Wright pgs. 70 - 76
Pg. 73
One set of studies sought to determine the shape of the universe by considering the density of matter in it. Einstein had shown that matter curves space in predictable ways, so that universes with different densities of matter will have different shapes. His theories allowed for three shapes: negative curvature, in which the universe looks like a saddle; positive curvature, in which the universe is spherical and flat, the most unlikely case, in which the overall density of matter doesn't warp space, and photons travel in straight lines. Flat space isn't two dimensional; it just isn't curved.
Each shape corresponds to a density of matter denoted by the symbol Omega. To create a flat universe, matter must reach so-called critical density, which means Omega equals one. In a saddle shaped universe Omega is less than one; in a spherical universe, it's more than one. Astronomers have sought to determine the value of Omega and distinguish among these geometries by measuring the way space bends beams of light. The light they like to measure isn't visible; it's microwave radiation left over from the big bang that glows at the farthest reaches of the universe.
Pg. 74
In the days before dark energy, astronomers believed that the end of the expanding universe would be dictated by the density of matter in it. Just as matter determined the curvature of space, it would also predict the way that space would expand and whether it would ever contract. Back when cosmic expansion was caused solely by the cataclysmic propulsion of the big bang, the gravity of matter was expected to eventually slow it down, maybe even stop it, maybe even reverse it. In short, density equalled destiny.
Based on that reasoning, astronomers proposed three models for the fate of the universe, each corresponding to a different geometry and density of matter. In each scenario, the gravitational attraction of all the matter in the universe tugs at the heels of the big bangs momentum like a tireless dog thats latched onto the leg of a running mailman.
If Omega is less than one, the universe keeps on expanding forever, but at an ever diminishing pace. That universe has the saddle shape and is called "open". If Omega is more than one, the universal expansion slows and eventually reverses, collapsing in a cosmic crunch. That universe is spherical and "closed". In a flat universe, where the density of matter is exactly one, the expansion eventually slows very nearly to a stop but never actually reverses.
But if the universe is made up mostly of repulsive, ubiquitous energy rather than matter, then its ultimate fate isn't inscribed in its shape after all.
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You cannot control your emotions and be self-seeking and ambitious at the same time.
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10-11-2006, 06:13 PM
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Lutra canadensis
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Join Date: Oct 2006
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Quote:
Originally Posted by W.E.B. Du Bois
I think you could say that physics is pretty organized, however evolution is pretty random. I'm a big fan of those shows on the Discovery Channel (i.e. Walking with Dinosaurs, etc). There has been an enormous diversity of life that has existed on this planet, and an enormous amount of conditions in which they existed in. Living beings are an improvisation, made up on the spot, to survive in their environments.
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Have you read "The Blind Watchmaker" by Richard Dawkins? I think you'd like it. he describes, very elegantly, just what you're espousing (I think). And he writes well:
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It is raining DNA outside. On the bank of the Oxford canal at the bottom of my garden is a large willow tree, and it is pumping downy seeds into the air. ... The whole performance, cotton wool, catkins, tree and all, is in aid of one thing and one thing only, the spreading of DNA around the countryside. Not just any DNA, but DNA whose coded characters spell out specific instructions for building willow trees that will shed a new generation of downy seeds. Those fluffy specks are, literally, spreading instructions for making themselves. They are there because their ancestors succeeded in doing the same. It is raining instructions out there; it's raining programs; it's raining tree-growing, fluff-spreading, algorithms. That is not a metaphor, it is the plain truth. It couldn't be any plainer if it were raining floppy discs.
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10-11-2006, 06:19 PM
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Moderator
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thane
Any ideas, thoughts opinions about why we and this place we call the universe exists ?
It just IS or is there more TO it ? Thought I'd start it from the very ground up :-) Since there's not of bunch of trolling "intellectuals" to trash it up yet.
Discussions like this CAN be interesting if you don't have some smartass coming in suggesting that you're stupid every two or three posts 
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I put it the way I see it. If there would be no universe like this, you could not ask about it. Ergo, there has to be a universe like this. Its rather likely that there exist uncountable other forms of universe, comporable stuff or perhaps something completely other stuff, but as we would not exist in any other one, its logically that the universe has to look like as it looks like. We would not be there otherwise.
Having that said, I dont need another higher being or similar to be able to explain myself why the universe looks like it does. The answer is because if it would not, no one could question it anyway. Even the more this is a rather uncomplicated explanation in comparission to which logical problems the concept of a higher being or creator brings withit.
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10-12-2006, 02:24 PM
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Lutra canadensis
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Join Date: Oct 2006
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Quote:
Originally Posted by W.E.B. Du Bois
Hmm, I don't like poetry mixed in with other things. I perfer pure politics, pure biology and pure philosophy. When they get mixed, I just get annoyed. It was interesting though. 
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Huh. I don't think of that as poetry, just a good analogy, and well illustrated. He also describes a beautiful and simple program, in the book, that creates 'biomorphs', which are shapes created with a simple set of instructions that act like genes, and can evolve.
http://www.rennard.org/alife/english/biomintrgb.html
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10-12-2006, 04:47 PM
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Junior Member...Really
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By the way, it stands to reason that as two bodies get further apart from each other, they will start to accelerate as the force of gravity is less influential.
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