What is up with Atheists? - Page 5 - Political Forum

Ygorl · 11-18-2006, 09:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Izzibeth

I understand what you are saying. However, I personally do not have "faith" in science or myself. I am not a believer in theism (hence... an atheist) and I do not feel the need, like many atheists do, to convince others to drop theism. As I said... it is a waste of time. And often, it ends up becoming a religion.. trying to convert others from their belief system.

So, you say you don't have faith in science OR yourself. Faith in yourself meaning that you have NO questions about being 100 % right on this issue. That being the case then, exposes a willingness to admit that you might be wrong on this issue. This says agnosticism instead of atheism. Agnosticism = "I don't know."

I'm agnostic TOO BTW. It makes the most sense to me. With about three million (yes, that's a slight exaggeration) different sects, denominations and general nuts each saying they know the only TRUE "path" to "righteousness" or whatnot it makes NO sense that there would be only ONE of them right and our being "saved" depends on us being lucky and choosing the right message giver. I stay away from organized religion because it involves men telling OTHER men THEIR ideas about God. I beleive men are very consistent at screwing things up, so I'll depend on God and maintain an open and willing spirit.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Izzibeth

I have my own thoughts/opinions/views on much of the religious community but I discuss it amongst my fellow peers and not with those who share those religious beliefs.

I have my own too (views on much of the religious community), and they aren't all that pretty. Actually, I think about as highly of THEM as I do of the athiest knotheads who CALL these religious people "Stupid idiots who believe in a God in the clouds."

That said, there ARE people on both sides that aren't complete, arrogant pricks. Look for them and you CAN have some valuable discussions. As for the rest, I find it easiest to tell them to "piss up a rope" and completely ignore.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Izzibeth

It only leads to fighting and neither side comes away with any change to what they think (or... I, personally, have never seen someone convert either way due to one conversation although I know it does happen) and both sides are just pissed.

That being said... if I feel I am being attacked due to my lack of belief in gods I will defend myself. My family tends to stay away from the religion debate with me.

I know exactly where you are in this, because I was there MYSELF once upon a time (Gad, I'm going to be 40 this B-day). My Dad and I have had some very nasty words trust me. We laugh about 'em now. But, he knows NOW I will just say "I don't know, you might be right. I haven't yet been given guided tours of heaven and hell."

He seems willing to accept that I'M willing and open, rather than just outright rejecting something that it makes no sense TO outright reject.

FRYandBENDER · 11-18-2006, 10:01 PM

Wow, I never would have thought I would start a five page thread, but I'm glad to see that everyone is interested. I have to say I would like WEB to opine though.... just interested in what he would have to say.

Anyways, I didn't really mean for this to be an arguement about who is right, religous or athiest, but rather I was questioning why atheist cannot let religious folks do their own thing. At the time I was particularily hot about it because I had sat there and listened to that guy pretty much belittle religous folks because he thought that he was so much more "enlightened" than them. I know that there are religious people who act the same way towards "heathens" but I just figured that someone so "enlightened" would not care so much what someone else thinks.

FRYandBENDER · 11-18-2006, 10:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by drgoodtrips

So, last week, I was nursing my customary Sunday morning hangover when my girlfriend convinced me that we should go and adopt a cat. So between greasy breakfast and the Sunday night Bears game, I went down to the local animal shelter, picked out a kitten and took him home. Within a few hours of having him at my place, we discovered that he had a pretty bad cold - he was getting fluid in his eyes, sneezing and wheezing, and feeling lethargic.

The next day, my girlfriend took him to the vet, where our suspicions about his cold were confirmed. The vet gave us a bunch of tubes of this awful pink liquid in syringe-like containers that we have to forcibly stuff down his throat twice per day. So, twice a day, religiously, I have held this little kitten on my lap, restrained all four of his paws, tipped his head back, shoved the applicator deep in his mouth, and force-fed him this awful smelling medicine while he mewled pathetically and tried to squirm away. I can think of few things more onerous for a little kitten than to be restrained by something that weighs 60 times as much as him and is shoving something down his throat.

Of course, he's running around my feet as I type this, full of energy, with the fluid gone from his eyes and the wheezing cleared up, none the wiser that this terrible procedure was actually beneficial to him.

Now, I'm neither trying to claim that the atrocities that you mention were "beneficial" nor am I even trying to "prove" the existence of God to you with my silly parable. I'm simply trying to make a point. If God exists in the way that we think of Him (benevolent, omniscient, and existing totally outside of the bounds of human understanding and logic), wouldn't it be silly to attempt to categorize His actions or "plan" in terms of human logic? Would it not be even more silly than my kitten, in his instinctual way, trying to make sense of why I was ramming a tube down his throat?

That is one of the smartest, most open minded things I have ever read. I hope you post a lot more around here.

Ygorl · 11-18-2006, 10:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FRYandBENDER

That is one of the smartest, most open minded things I have ever read. I hope you post a lot more around here.

Shit. Thats funny. I didn't even know dr was HERE. Missed his posts obviously :-)

Anywho, thats generally what you'll get from him. Very well thought out posts with ideas that usually make good sense.

Glad he's come here, he'll only add GOOD.

superbug · 11-19-2006, 08:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by drgoodtrips

From what I understand of Satan (who I think is as mythological as Zeus or Hercules), he is more tricky than stupid. Do you think the sly character single-handedly responsible for man's fall from grace would be dumb enough to step into the ring against a ringer?

Seems to me that he'd try to be more clever than that.

You can think that Satan is as mythological as you like, it doesn't change the fact that he is very real. You may as well think I'm mythological while you are at it.
Satan does not have a choice in this mater. God has preordained it, so it will be done.

Scruff · 11-19-2006, 11:02 AM

superbug, I have a question for you.

How can you put so much certainty behind those words? Am I mistaken in stating that you believe that you know that Satan exists?

Really, I personally cannot profess to know anything about any higher plane which has been stated by yourself and many other religious folk to be incomprehensible to mere mortals. I happen to believe it doesn't exist, but then again I can't comprehend it so I could be wrong. My dad and I (he having his own very unique beliefs in a god) reached an agreement where both of our arguments are possible.

Does some kind of categorical difference exist between belief and faith? Is it the element of self-doubt?

superbug · 11-19-2006, 12:25 PM

I just know that he does exist, just as I know God and Jesus exist, and that Jesus is my Savior. It's as plain to me as the oak tree in my back yard.

Ygorl · 11-19-2006, 01:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by superbug

I just know that he does exist, just as I know God and Jesus exist, and that Jesus is my Savior. It's as plain to me as the oak tree in my back yard.

It's my beleif that Satan was/is a conceptual being created by HUMANS to explain the shitty side of human behaviour. When humans stop acting like pond scum, Satan won't be necessary.

That, however is unlikely to happen so he remains.

superbug · 11-19-2006, 02:12 PM

Seeing how the story of his fall from Grace is in the Bible then he is real.

Ygorl · 11-19-2006, 02:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by superbug

Seeing how the story of his fall from Grace is in the Bible then he is real.

Perhaps. I don't know.

Or, maybe it was a way for the authors of said book to explain and continue to explain poor human behaviour ?

Lets set that aside for a minute.

Can you give some specifics about what this Satan fellow is doing right now to guide us away from God ?

Lets keep it somewhat small. List no more than four or five of the most major if you will.