Auschwitz? Gulag?

I want no part of any God whose "plan"
included these.

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From the fury of the Northmen, Good Lord deliver us.

Superbug's point is that you can't expect to comprehend god's plan because it's too vast to comprehend. Auschwitz and the Gulag only represent a small portion of such a plan, a "tree" in superbug's metaphorical "forest". Perhaps only a sapling at that.

On the other hand I see those two events as being much more important that a mere sapling or even a tree. They had monstrous consequences on the structure of the world as we know it.

As an agnostic, I am somewhat in agreement with superbug. I think the presence and circumstances of the existence of a higher power in the universe is beyond the limited scope of mankind. I don't think one can say there is or is not a God because no such evidence has been presented. But I don't think the absence of evidence rules out the existence. I say it's inconclusive and further thinking needs to be done.

I also agree with another poster's assertion that God may be somewhat peripheral, being that the universe is a very vast, complex, constantly growing and changing environment; I doubt a creator would have the time to check in on us every 5 minutes. It may be a fault of mankind in assuming that the universe is made particularly for us, given our limitations. For instance it's pretty difficult for us to live anywhere but earth, yet the universe is so large. Quite a conundrum.

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"The saddest aspect of life right now is that science gathers knowledge faster than society gathers wisdom."
Isaac Asimov

I see Gulag and Auschwitz as a lot more than any tree.
They are a forest within the forest planted by a satanic
God, if they are indeed part of any "plan". It would be best
if such a God did not exist. Since the historical evidence for
his exisitence is literally nil (although I think it likely Christ
was historical), then I will go with unbelief.

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From the fury of the Northmen, Good Lord deliver us.

Like I said, there is a plan, and only He knows that plan. It's not for us to know.
Keep in mind, just because you want no part of Him, He still has your entire life planned out.

I recommend you read Job.

I think that a good indication that there might be a God is that somehow, every early civilization, that I've ever heard about anyways, has had some form of religion, or observance of a higher power..... or powers. No matter how isolated, every society has had some belief system. Maybe that stems from some original belief from the days of "mitochondrial eve", but maybe that just means that as humans gradually spread out over time, the particulars of the beliefs changed with respect to the "tribes" that took them with them. I think I might have just argued myself. Anyhow, far be it for me to criticize someone for not believing something, my only beef was with atheists all of the sudden.... or not all of the sudden?......wanting to ban religion. With as much uncertainty as exists today, I don't see how anyone can say that they know anything for certain, whether it is that there is a God or not. I've read some books on Bhuddism and I think that it would be a pretty peaceful/ non intrusive practice.

By the way, if there are any Christians on here who know a lot about Revelations; when the final battle occurs, do our souls get to fight hells forces, or will that be left to the angels and God? I have wondered that for a while, I think that it would be pretty cool if we got some play time....... as long as I get a cool sword or something........ and instincively knew how to fight a demon....... that is not really the kind of situation that I would want to be second guessing myself.

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Neither am I the means to any end others may wish to accomplish. I am not a tool for their use. I am not a servant of their needs. I am not a bandage for their wounds. I am not a sacrifice on their altars. ... I owe nothing to my brothers, nor do I gather debts from them. I ask no one to live for me, nor do I live for others. I covet no mans soul, nor is my soul theirs to covet.

Ayn Rand, Anthem.

I think at the very it end it is going to be Jesus that fights the final battle.

what happens if he loses?

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He won't. So there is no what if.

What is the point of having a final battle if there is no doubt as to whether or not he will win? Does whoever he is going to fight not know they are going to lose?
I'm not trying to be a jerk. I'm just curious, honestly.

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