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Ok, everywhere a discussion is started on the topic of "for and against" gay marriage, i see so many (both gays and heteros) use the "why not" as if it is the ultimate argument! Why not gay marriage, how can it hurt or affect others. Or, why not sex between two men... even the animals do it! Why not why not... as if it is the most natural thing with no costs involved for anyone.

And it is so often mixed with the question of religion/spirituality that i felt compelled to go a litle deeper into the subject of "why not" according to spiritual doctrines, but from another angle. Many peole have a hard time with mixing homosexual discussons with spirituality because many instinctively feel that, If we are suppose to be free and religions in reality should help us become free, then why the ban or intolerance regarding homosexuals, and so on.

Let me share with you the knowledge i have gathered on the subject in my almost 20 years of spiritual study and searching. This is taken from the science of Tantra Yoga. The Tantra system is not realy classified as a religion so please try and read the folowing without the usual preconceptions on the subject.

Why homosexuality is regarded a sin by the classical religions:

=-=-= Because a homosexual can not reach God! =-=-=

According to the classical religions ranging from Buddhism to Islam to Cristianity and even to Tantric Yoga, homosexuality is forbidden. Why?! Not because God is prejudicial or intolerant or overly sensitive, but because God is complete and can only be reached by us becoming complete aswell!

Let me illustrate this through Tantric principles, because Tantra is one of the very few systems that goes into details concerning the energies and laws of our nature and explains fully the mechanisms governing our existence.

First of all Tantra means web, or the threads in a loom (when creating a carpet). So it's the pattern or matrix, if u like, of the structure of the carpet. Since the tantrics weren't particularly interested in carpets, the name Tantra refers to the cosmic matrix, or the matrix of life... the threads or pattern of energies that lies behind everything that is created. And i will tell u right now. To get firsthand experience of the matrix behind everything is blissful!... But also terrifying! Terrifying to our little person who starts to disintegrate (because it cannot be in direct contact with the unlimited cosmic matrix and at the same time maintain its own limits), but blissful because creation and bliss are one and the same!

And so, for this matrix to exist and not collapse upon itself in chaos, there must be laws and tendencies...all governed with a pure mathematical or surgical precision. You have certainly heard of natural laws or laws of nature, which we all experience around us, and new are found as we grow and evolve. That ofcorse is related to the matrix in the word Tantra.

If you want an example of a pattern in our life. Something that is physical but yet governed by a universal pattern, an invisible energy matrix, think of the spiral. The spiral is in the small and the large. It is everywhere around us and in us. The greatest star constellations are made in giant spirals. The winds on our planet when seen from a satellite tends to move around in spirals. Storms and twisters move in spirals. When u flush out the water in a toilet or a tub, it moves down in spirals. If a flock of pigeons are suddenly startled on a square, they never fly away in a direct line, they always fly up and around in a big spiral. Our extremities, head fingers and toes have all got spirals on them (hair spirals and prints)...and many many more. This is just one example that there are invisible energies keeping things in a certain order.

And what has all this have to do with homosexuals u say... just a moment. We will get there soon.

Because we are the only living beings on this planet with a free will, we also have the possibility of changing and transforming our inborn patterns. According to the tantric sicence, men and women are also created according to certain energy patterns. And we are different!! It is said that women are minus and men are plus as in - and + according to the tantric system. Minus and plus put together makes zero. Not as in "nothing", but as in "the absence of oposites", or "something complete". Zero in Tantra means full balance and harmony between oposite forces. The Chinese have discovered the same and call it yin and yang. The female and the male principle. Two opposites that complete each other. Together they form the full circle of yin and yang!

Now, the female and male principles have distinct and different qualities. For example, the female principle (yin) is considered to be receptive, and the male principle (yang) emissive! What does this mean. This means amongst other things that the feminine matrix has the quality of being easily influenced, sensitive, takes color of its surroundings, absorbs and knows things from within. The masculine matrix is influential, dynamic and outgoing and colors its surroundings, makes an impact. These are two different expressions of universal energies that are complementary. They should eventually merge.

The tantrics also say that the man represents the center of a wheel. In itself it is worth nothing. The woman represents the spokes of the wheel. Again, the spokes alone are worthless. But the center and the spokes put together create a perfect wheel and thats everything! Together they form a perfection. When united, both these aspects can then be transcended and what remains is completeness, or said in other words. These two principles united are the key to the universal matrix! Which in Tantra is the same as the Divine or God or Universal Self or whatever people want to name that.

When one understands the importance of + and - (plus and minus), and the completeness that results from these oposites when canceling each other out, then it becomes apparent that + and + can never give 0 (zero), neither can - and - ever give 0 (zero). Which translated into the human relation means, a man and a man together can never fulfill eachother energetically, nor can a woman and a woman reach energetical completeness. These kinds of mergings only create inner energetical frustrations and give rise to a whole range of troubles!!

One of the very clear and direct troubles that arise from two men merging in a sexual union, is the fact that they make each other more and more yin. Because of the masculine energy's inherent ability to influence and color whatever it penetrates, a man penetrating another man will polarize the other man to become more yin...more feminine! So, two men doing this to each other will be pushing themselves more and more into the feminine realm thus creating havoc in their mental, psychological and emotional inner life with no completeness or perfection of the soul in sight.

When i first learned of these ideas, i had a hard time accepting it all because i thought that gays are born like that by coincidence, or because nature made the choice for them and there is nothing they can do about it... they can't help it i thought! Amongst my friends i had two gays and one lesbian girl, so i thought i knew. But according to my teacher and as i later in so many ways came to realize, i found that the people we call gays are persons who at some point in the existence of their soul have crossed a certain line. They have been atracted to certain abnormalities and thus created a perversion within themselves. In this or a prior existence they have made the choice to become perverse... they like being perverse and derive a certain kind of pleasure form it. It is simply a matter of an aquired taste! EVERYBODY CAN DO IT! We all have it in ourselves to cross that line and whats more, homosexuals can be artificially created too! Meaning, trends and ideas and society can influence the border people... those who don't know exactly what to choose, who have certain inner insecurities, limitations, inclinations in both directions, weaknesses or longing for perversions can be atrcated or convinced to try homosexuality and begin to aquire the taste for it.

And so, the million dollar question which probably some or u now are thinking of...Is society trying to create more gays? To that my answer is:

YES!

But Why!?...

Read beginning of post.

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I like to consider myself open to any opinion, so I will accept yours. I however cannot base my choices or policy stances on ancient texts or theories about spirals and energies present that connect all of us. Sounds familiar... hmmm... george lucas.

The way I see it, when one gives the argument of "why not" it is actually a very formidable opening stance. Because when one side is for restricting liberty (by preventing gays from obtaining marriage) then it is they who have to prove or show why that liberty should be restricted. The funny thing is that the only responses you generally get are religious in nature, which bear little to no substance in my eyes.

Again I see no logical reason not to allow homosexuals to marry. Or I suppose we could just go to the other end and not allow anyone to marry. Its meaningless these days as is demonstrated by the astronomical divorce rates in this country.

Exactly.

& CT2507,
As long as they are not infringing on your rights then it is really non of your business. I think that homosexuality is ridiculous, but that is just my opinion. No one has ever hurt me by being gay so why should I care?

__________________
Neither am I the means to any end others may wish to accomplish. I am not a tool for their use. I am not a servant of their needs. I am not a bandage for their wounds. I am not a sacrifice on their altars. ... I owe nothing to my brothers, nor do I gather debts from them. I ask no one to live for me, nor do I live for others. I covet no mans soul, nor is my soul theirs to covet.

Ayn Rand, Anthem.

Sure it is my business as a member of society, taxpayer and a witness to what is going on.

Just start to look around and stop believing that society is just changing by itself. It isn't. There are coordinated attacks on the free will and the natural evolution and growth of society on a regular basis. The artificial expanding of the homosexual agenda is just one of them. Take a look at how suddenly this agenda was introduced in many countries independent of one another through mass media, movies, TV shows, school material and more... and how it has become such that no one dares question this trend of fear of being called a conspiracy nut!! Just like in V for Vendetta people are getting more and more afraid of voicing what they think or questioning the authorities and what the mass media dictates. It has reached a level now that people who don't comply with this trend get in trouble (there are many examples on the net and in the news with actors, pop stars and politicians and school kids who are forced to write essays on the subject and so on). Watch how heterosexuals are made to feel that they are missing out on interesting parts of life... or that in the worst case they are somehow less than the homosexuals, that something is wrong with them. That homosexuals are more creative, inspiring, fun and so on. These attitudes are being wide spread through the media and entertaining business on a daily basis now on a massive scale. If this was a coincidence, just a trend created by the clashes of so many people and races being creative together, it would die out after a while just as with a good story or a joke looses its atraction after its momentum has died out. But the very fact that it is growing and spreading, knowing the effort and money that must be involved to keep the snowball rolling on a daily basis, shows that there are certain forces behind with a very specific intent.

And the intent is obvious... its called desensitizing in order to brainwash.

Whatsoever we see on a daily basis all around us becomes the norm. It is one thing to make a few changes of some laws that help the gay community and make them less of a hunted minority group. But it is something totally different when several countries at the same time start spiting out tv shows, commercials, school material, movies that all have to do with how fantastic it is to be gay!

So are we to believe that gays suddenly rose to power simultaneously in so many different countries in schools, media and politics and said: Lets do it boys... lets make this world a better place. Or is something completely different going on.!?

LOL

Let me understand, CT.

You believe that if gays are allowed to marry, they will make you gay?

They will brainwash you into giving up your Christian beliefs and values? You will lose your faith?

Do I understand you?

Nope u don't understand me. My Christian beliefs and values are never mentioned in my post. Nor is the loosing of my faith. Neither is a direct relation made between gays marriying and me transforming into a gay.

Try reading my posts again.

I did read them. You titled this discussion: "Why Gays can not reach God!" It doesn't say you will give an explanation as to why they can't reach Allah, or be reincarnated. Though you may have not actually supported that claim in your writing, it is still the title of this thread.

The arguements you offered about gays being allowed to marry was that they we need to safeguard our society from them desensitizing us, which will lead to them brainswashing us, which I took to understand you were afraid that they would brainwash you into believing things you don't want to believe.

That was the essence of your argument, wasn't it? I mean, if you remove all the justifications and reasons for making that argument--that is the argument as it stands. Correct?

Again i get the feeling u are twisting some ideas in my original post. I dont say that gays are desensitizing us. I say that a process of desensitizing is done upon us using the gay agenda. Actualy if u ask me i believe the people behind the gay agenda are not even gay themselves. That they are using gays for obtaining their own goals. But thats just my personal opinion.

By God is meant an inner completeness in tune with the macrocosmical matrix. An inner perfection at it is called in tantric and tibetan practice. It can be said in many ways... it isnt necesary Christian although it is related.

I am not afraid that they will brainwash me into believing things i dont want to believe. I know whats going on. Im trying with my post to show that there is logic and deeper understanding of natures laws in the crittique coming from the spiritual sources regarding this matter. And the tantric system is better at explaining the mechanisms behind the differences between male and female than any other system available. It can actualy explain how man and woman function on a deeper level and what is happening when homosexuals have sex and why, instead of just giving dogmatic views like the superficial religions that are so easily turned down.

All right, so what you're saying is that you don't care if gay sex is taboo in Christianity, you believe it's against human nature and the 'universe'.

So let me ask you, then, do you believe in the rule of law? Do you believe that all men are created equal? Do you believe that each of us has the right to equal protection of the laws of our country? Do you believe that we, as citizens of the United States have vastly different beliefs ranging from Satanism, athiesm, agnostic, Wiccan, Catholic, Muslim, Buddhist, etc. and as such, we are each protected from religious oppression by our government or by one another?

And if you believe all that, can you explain to me why your personal beliefs should be made into a law to oppress the rights of a particular group of United States citizens?