Another post here about education has lead me to a subject that bugs the hell out of me....Maybe it will spur some discussion.

How do you seperate church and state in a government of the people and by the people without ultimately making religion illegal?

My example before was the school voucher system. Alot of parents liked it and immediately sought to send there students to their preffered schools, many were religious schools....becuase checks were cut by the government the voucher sysytem was held to be an illegal blending of church and state.

This in effect told parents that the attempt to give children their religious values in education was illegal.

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On a Mission from God

A notation... CRS/LII Annotated Constitution First Amendment

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My understanding is that the wording of the Treaty of Tripoli has been the subject of much debate, especially when given the situation and context of that time. (i.e., the intentions not to go to war with the Muslim pirates, and the inability or desire to wage war with another foreign nation)

While I am not 100% sure just how much Christianity played in the founding of this country's government and Constitution, I'm also skeptical of people who claim that our government was completely secular, and hold to a theory that our government was eventually hijacked by over zealous Christians. If that were to be completely true, I have a hard time understanding why it's been so hard to define exactly where that line between church and state begins and ends. Today, it seems as though anything and everything is being targeted as a violation of the "separation between church and state". Some of the stuff is slowly being taken out that was there when I was a child. You hear stories about the word "Christmas" being taken out of schools, or Christmas figures of Baby Jesus decorations now being forbidden in government offices.

The first thing is to realized that "separation of church and state" is a metaphor for no civil authority over religion.

Post the Court's opinion or a link to it, so we know what you're talking about.

So, why weren't all the religious schools and churches shut down and all of the religious teachers punished, by the civil authorities.

Word meanings are important. Legal metaphors are more dangerous than anything else.

Do they have to be shut down to be considered punished? In a fre market loosing a customer is the biggest form of punishment.

I'll find a case when I have time.....

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On a Mission from God

The debate, or lack thereof, led to the ratification of the words of the Treaty, which when construed according to the "rules of interpretation" mean that "the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion." However, the exemption of religion from civil authority is consistent with the Baptist and Episcopalian Principle that,

The power of the civil magistrate extendeth to all men, as well Clergy as Laity, in all things temporal; but hath no authority in things purely spiritual. And we hold it to be the duty of all men who are professors of the gospel, to pay respectful obedience to the civil authority, regularly and legitimately constituted.

--Art. XXXVII. Of the Power of the Civil Magistrate; The Thirty-nine Articles of the American Episcopal Church adopted by the General Convention held at Trenton, New Jersey, Sept. 3–12, 1801

One could reasonably argue that the principle of no civil authority over religion in the U. S. Constitution was founded on a principle of the Baptist and Episcopalian religious creeds.

It makes no difference, with respect to the meaning of the Constitution, how much, or how little, Christianity played in the adoption of the document. It is a legal document to be interpreted according to the "rules of interpretation" that were a part of the common law in 1788, extending back to the 1300's.

Who advances that theory?

That may be because you are unaware that there are two competing American traditions of belief regarding the proper role that religion should have in civil affairs, and that the proponents of these two traditions have been fighting over separation of church and state ever since the adoption of the Godless Constitution in 1788.

It's easy to excuse government authority over religion when it is your religious opinions that are being encouraged by the civil magistrate. That was the case when Protestantism, and then Protestant/Catholicism, was the overwhelming majority in America. In 2007, that is no longer the case and views other than Protestant/Catholicism have significant political power and demand that all religion be exempt from the cognizance of civil authority.

Heh. Some certain number of people at another forum where I used to be a member.


Well, if that's the case, then I expect they will take everything out of the government right down to prayer in public office and to recognition of the Christmas holiday, unless they want to recognize it as national "Winter Holiday". Not that the commercialism of Christmas resembles anything Christian anyways.

Maybe all it told parents was not to expect the civil government to trespass upon the jurisdiction of God and pay for their child's religious training. Civil governments were formed to deal with secular matters only.

So, civil government is formed by who? When did the government and the people get seperated in the US? Do they not represent those parents interests with those parents tax dollars. I want my money back if I have to trade secularism for my faith.

They do trespass on the Jurisdiction of God by telling those parents it's ok to go to secular schools, we'll pay for that but nothing else. Usually, private Church schools well surpass the carriclum (sp?) of state run schools, so you can't say they're worried about the quality of education.

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On a Mission from God

However, the purpose of the vouchers was to allow parents to choose an alternative to failing public schools. The purpose is not religious. It is similar to the way the GI bill and pell grants, etc., can go to church-based colleges. The intent is to increase education, not promote religion.

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A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.
— Robert Heinlein, Time Enough for Love