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05-16-2007, 09:32 AM
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Nicest Moderator
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Independent147
That must be why we're so screwed up! we are mating with our counsins! lol. Maybe that's HOW we evolved. lol.
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Actually, if you mate with your cousin your offspring has a very low chance of genetic defect (due to family ties). Marrying a cousin is pretty common in other parts of the world and is really kind of a recent taboo in the Western world. Cousins, although we're taught that it's creepy, are actually genetically safe to mate with..... so... like... do it up, I guess.
Brothers and sisters are just two genetically similar and you will end up with a mutated (in some fashion) child.
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05-16-2007, 09:32 AM
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Viscount
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It is true that Adam and Eve did not only have Cain and Abel. It is mentioned, in the Bible, that they had many other children. Calvin, as Luther, sorta sidetracked this problem. Luther said that it is not for us to question, we should just believe, and adds that it only says that Adam and Eve where the firts people, not the only ones god created.
Calvin disagrees, saying that all men are from Adam and Eve (gets it from the descriptions of the new testament), saying that it mustbe so, as all men are sinfull due to the orginal sin of Adam and Eve. It would be wrong to hold mankind responsible for Adams sin, if we were not related to him, according to the REformer. He then agrees with Luther, that we should not question this too much, as we can not understand, and as the Bible was not written as a history book, but a book of relevation.
Since then, most protestant churches, up to the pentacostal movement anyway, maintain mainly that Cain must've married one of his sisters, or his sisters shildren, or something like that.
The problem for me is that when god cursed Cain, he was afraid that the other people would kill him. But his opther brothers and sisters where only born after Cain's death, acording to Genesis. So who was he afraid of??
AH
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05-16-2007, 10:13 AM
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His other brothers were born after his exile... as I said, it isn't clear about the sisters. But why would he be scared of his sisters? More likely, they'd be scared of him. I suppose he could have been scared of his father.
But yeah, it doesn't make a lot of sense if we assume that there were no humans other than Adam, Eve, and their children.
As I said though, if it is true, then it would have been passed through thousands of generations of oral tradition before being written, so the story's details would be severely distorted.
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05-16-2007, 10:52 AM
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Knight
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Quote:
Originally Posted by africanhope
It is true that Adam and Eve did not only have Cain and Abel. It is mentioned, in the Bible, that they had many other children. Calvin, as Luther, sorta sidetracked this problem. Luther said that it is not for us to question, we should just believe, and adds that it only says that Adam and Eve where the firts people, not the only ones god created.
Calvin disagrees, saying that all men are from Adam and Eve (gets it from the descriptions of the new testament), saying that it mustbe so, as all men are sinfull due to the orginal sin of Adam and Eve. It would be wrong to hold mankind responsible for Adams sin, if we were not related to him, according to the REformer. He then agrees with Luther, that we should not question this too much, as we can not understand, and as the Bible was not written as a history book, but a book of relevation.
Since then, most protestant churches, up to the pentacostal movement anyway, maintain mainly that Cain must've married one of his sisters, or his sisters shildren, or something like that.
The problem for me is that when god cursed Cain, he was afraid that the other people would kill him. But his opther brothers and sisters where only born after Cain's death, acording to Genesis. So who was he afraid of??
AH
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Well, I think that brings up the question of whether or not Cain already had siblings who would take revenge against him. The problem is, from creation to the fall of man to Cain killing his brother, Genesis is summarizing many important events in just 4 short chapters and not giving out many details. Four chapters is probably not enough info to answer everybody's personal questions. As a matter of fact, much of the Bible is like that. Perhaps because there would be scores of books in it if it gave all the details and every single answer to everyone's questions. So many people throughout history are asking questions and having to make various personal assumptions.
For instance, if you read Acts 12:21-23, it's easy to get the impression that an angel struck down Herod and he was suddenly eaten by worms:
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And upon a set day Herod, arrayed in royal apparel, sat upon his throne, and made an oration unto them. And the people gave a shout, saying, It is the voice of a god, and not of a man. And immediately the angel of the Lord smote him, because he gave not God the glory: and he was eaten of worms, and gave up the ghost.
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But it's actually just giving you a quick account of what happened, because Flavius Josephus, the Jewish historian has this to say about the death Herod Agrippa which helps to clear things up by giving more details that the Bible doesn't give. Notice the lengthy passage of Josephus compared to the short passage of the Bible:
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Now when Agrippa had reigned three years over all Judea, he came to the city Caesarea. There he exhibited shows in honor of the emperor. On the second day of the festival, Herod put on a garment made wholly of silver, and of a truly wonderful contexture, and came into the theater early in the morning; at which time the silver of his garment was illuminated by the fresh reflection of the sun's rays upon it. It shone out after a surprising manner, and was so resplendent as to spread a horror over those that looked intently upon him. At that moment, his flatterers cried out that he was a god; and they added, 'Be thou merciful to us; for although we have hitherto reverenced thee only as a man, yet shall we henceforth own thee as superior to mortal nature.'
Upon this the king did neither rebuke them, nor reject their impious flattery. But as he presently afterward looked up, he saw an owl sitting on a certain rope over his head, and immediately understood that this bird was the messenger of ill tidings, as it had once been the messenger of good tidings to him; and he fell into the deepest sorrow. A severe pain also arose in his belly, and began in a most violent manner. He therefore looked upon his friends, and said, 'I, whom you call a god, am commanded presently to depart this life; while Providence thus reproves the lying words you just now said to me; and I, who was by you called immortal, am immediately to be hurried away by death. But I am bound to accept of what Providence allots, as it pleases God; for we have by no means lived ill, but in a splendid and happy manner.'
After he said this, his pain was become violent. Accordingly he was carried into the palace, and the rumor went abroad that he would certainly die in a little time. But the multitude presently sat in sackcloth, with their wives and children, after the law of their country, and besought God for the king's recovery. All places were also full of mourning and lamentation. Now the king rested in a high chamber, and as he saw them below lying prostrate on the ground, he could not himself forbear weeping. And when he had been quite worn out by the pain in his belly for five days, he departed this life, being in the fifty-fourth year of his age, and in the seventh year of his reign.
------[Flavius Josephus, Jewish Antiquities 19.343-350]
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Last edited by panteth4h2o : 05-16-2007 at 11:19 AM.
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05-16-2007, 12:31 PM
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Viscount
Red Green
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Damn, now I can nail my hot cousin! Lol, just kiddin!
I think that, though a catholic, the evolution theory is much more literal and could actually happen.
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"Love has its sonnets galore. War has its epics in heroic verse. Tragedy its sombre story in measured lines. Baseball has Casey at the Bat." - Albert Spalding
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"There are three things that should never be talked about; politics, religion, and... the Great Pumkin."
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Pirates ftw! http://www.politicsforumpoliticalwor...uestion-2.html
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05-16-2007, 12:50 PM
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Baron
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Quote:
Originally Posted by panteth4h2o
It's obvious that Adam and Eve's offspring mated with each other shortly after creation, just as the offspring of animals did after the flood. For whatever reasons that are not mentioned in the Bible, this was forbidden by the LORD thousands of years later when He gave the Hebrew law to Moses shortly before they became a nation and settled in Palestine. The Bible gives no explanation why, just like it gives no explanation for a few other things.
Either way, I would have to imagine that whether we believe in creationism or evolution, there had to have been some sort of mating taking place between offspring after coming from a common origin "in the beginning".
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I have read a theory that the Old Testament is basically the history of a family. Not much detail is given of anybody outside of that family. It's very possible that other people were created, as well as Adam and Eve.
That said, Genesis isn't a literal telling of history. It's there mainly for the point of telling us that God created the earth, and that all mankind is related. The details of how God created the earth was beyond the understanding of primitive nomads, hence it wasn't part of the story.
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05-16-2007, 11:17 PM
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Knight
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What it do say:
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16 And Cain went out from the presence of the LORD, and dwelt in the land of Nod, on the east of Eden.
17 And Cain knew his wife; and she conceived, and bare Enoch: and he builded a city, and called the name of the city, after the name of his son, Enoch.
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"builded a city" seems to imply that there was more people present than just Cain and his wife...or why would they need a city?
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05-17-2007, 02:48 AM
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Knight
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Join Date: Nov 2006
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dahermit
"builded a city" seems to imply that there was more people present than just Cain and his wife...or why would they need a city?
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Well, if they were told to fill the earth and multiply, then I'm sure mankind wasted no time doing such a thing. Given how long the Bible says that early man lived, it's not easy to imagine how many people were in his downline that he knew throughout his life, unlike us who only live a short time and are lucky to know our grandchildren and great grandchildren.
But once again, the problem is that the Bible probably just gives a quick summery of Cain and what he did after having settled in Nod. It does not say exactly when these events took place. For all we know, it he could have tried to build a town or city long after having his first child, who by then, probably had children, and who probably had their children, and etc.
If we just look at the passage and assume that he immediately tried to build a city right after after having laid with his wife, then it wouldn't seem to make sense. Like I said in a previous post, the Bible just simply states certain events in short passages without going into further detail. For that reason. it can sometimes be misleading and cause people to make quick assumptions.
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05-17-2007, 06:17 AM
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Viscount
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Many commentators tend to, these days anyway, say that we should move away from a litteral reading of the Bible, and look more at the meaning. So Adam and Eve, and Cain and Abel, is not historic fact, but serves as an ilistration that man himself is the cause of the problems he faces, and of sin and misery in the world. Cain and Abel then proofs that it is so bad that even brothers kill one another over rather trivial things.
Cain also had to have children, as it is the popular believe that the bad in the world is the children of Cain, whilst Semt, his younger brother, is the father of the good, the new hope that came after Abel.Jesus's ancestry is then traced back by Matthew all the way to Abraham, who's ancestry is traced to Noah, who's then is traced back to Set.
Offcourse, if the Flood happend, we all trace our ancestors back to Noah, and Cain's people died. This means that we are all from the 3 sons of Noah, who took their wives on the Arc with them.
AH
__________________
“The subject no longer has to be mentioned by name. Someone is sick. Someone else is feeling better now. A friend has just gone back into the hospital. Another has died. The unspoken name, of course, is AIDS.”
“From the point of view of the pharmaceutical industry, the AIDS problem has already been solved. After all, we already have a drug which can be sold at the incredible price of $8, 000 an annual dose, and which has the added virtue of not diminishing the market by actually curing anyone.”
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05-29-2007, 07:29 PM
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Temporarily Banned
FREE MUMIA
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The real parents of mankind:

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