emptypepsi

I've had to delete a few posts from this thread due to insults. Consider this the warning on the matter. Discuss the issues, not the personal aspect of the posters.

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"The saddest aspect of life right now is that science gathers knowledge faster than society gathers wisdom."
Isaac Asimov

http://www.politicsforumpoliticalwor...ion-forum-rule

Taliesin

I have a question for any athiests here that came up when I was debating with one of my athiest friends last night. He argued that time is infinite and that universes live, die, and are reborn. He said that each universe was created from the matter left over from the previous universe.

I asked him, if that's the case, where did the first matter come from? He said that it has always been here. For me personally that makes no sense; how could something have always been here? I mean, for me, there had to have been a beginning of some sort at some point.

It's my opinion that since the Laws of Thermodynamics say that matter cannot be created, at some point there had to exist something that was not restricted by even our most basic laws of nature. At some point, something had to have created matter. You can call that a God if you want, but it could be anything, a being of energy, a divine creature, a process that defied physics, etc.

Is my friend's view the view of most athiests, or do you have your own opinion?

I'm a Deist by the way.

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"One of the penalties for refusing to participate in politics is that you end up being governed by your inferiors."
~Plato

Matthew.lincoln

Well I am Athiest and my views are totaly different. Except I don't believe a form such as a "god" would create every matter around us. I think it is more scientific then imaginative. The questions that comes from all of this would be, what created your god to create such a thing? This is impossible for human to come up with any theory. I just rest assure the belief that I will never know but I surely know there isn't a higher being casted over my daily movement.

The answer to the question on creation will forever be unexplainable, and no person can find this out. So what is the point in debating about something not one of us knows, its like telling someone that ice cream is created from water.........the truth is that water has a part in the equation but still has no explenation. (the only difference is water is a matter and creation is a theory)

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"At the center of non-violence stands the principle of love." ~ Martin Luther King Jr

"Salute the smiling faces of the 21st Century." ~ Daisaku Ikeda

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Matthew.lincoln

By the way what part of Colorado are you from. My family lives in Brighton, Westminister, and Henderson.

__________________
"At the center of non-violence stands the principle of love." ~ Martin Luther King Jr

"Salute the smiling faces of the 21st Century." ~ Daisaku Ikeda

"An eye for eye only ends up making the whole world blind." ~ Mohandas Gandhi

Miltiades

Just to clear anyones confusion, Athiests do NOT all believe in the same thing. They only share one common ground-they do not believe in a grand creator such as God. Each Athiest is different than the next in some way.


Now, back to your post. I do not know what to believe. In my opinion the answer is out therem but it hasnt shown itself or it is beyond human comprehension to understand. So far I havnt found ONE theory that gives a solid answer without exeptions or etc. I think (not believe, but THINK) that the universe was either once nothing but nothing. Not even emptyness existed. Then by some force or "will" (im not suggesting God here, but something else. Im not sure what. I sound idiotic I know... Perhaps Life itself willed itself into being? Before there were laws wasnt everything possible?) boom, everything was created by a great shock similar to the Big Bang theory. OR tht time is nothin but a create of living things to issue order and the universe simply has always been. If matter can not be created then it shall not be created! It shall just be forever. The universe is like a sphere, there is no begining it just turns and turns and turns. Ok, now imagine the sphere having infinate dimensions. It should be flat, but spherical at the same time. That is the world. No begining and stretching on forever.


Humans are so hard headed arnt we? I myself am, so are you. Most of us can not accept the possibility of somthing just being and not beggining. We have to have some sort of creation theory otherwise it wouldnt make sense to us!

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Miltiades

ha, I have familiy in Lousiville Colorado! (its outside of Denver, not to be confused with Lousiville KY.)

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iTaliAN_ICe

I don't think we'll ever know the answer to questions like that. As you pointed out, though, our law of mass/matter conservation states that matter cannot be created or destroyed. For now, I'm going to assume that this law is true. I think that it's illogical to assume that some all-powerful entity exists unbound by the laws of our universe. Nothing can exist outside of the universe. The universe is everything in existence.

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"As the government of the United States is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion or tranquility of Musselmen… it is declared… The United States is not a Christian nation any more than it is a Jewish or a Mohammedan nation."

-Treaty of Tripoli, 1794.

Taliesin

Yeah, I had to deal with this argument in Todd C. Moody's book Does God Exist?. My belief is that this "thing" that can defy physics is eternal. So if that is the case why can't the universe be eternal. I obviously can't give decent reasoning as no evidence concerning God exists at all. I can only say that it is my opinion (but that's all any religious theory is).

Yeah, I just don't like labeling things as unexplainable and leaving them undiscussed. I enjoy discussing the possible truths even when I know finding the one absolute truth is impossible.

I know that you don't all have the same opinions.

Now there is an interesting question. Did the laws of physic exist before the universe did? Or are they so basic that they don't need an actual universe to exist. I suppose the same question would apply to numbers. Before there was a universe (assuming there was a point where there was no universe) could one tell the difference between two items and three? Or does that require that a universe exist? Even past that, did numbers exist before humans or are they inventions of our own concious minds?

Alright, but what is your opinion on how matter was created? Has it always existed?

As for where I live, my family/summer home is in Centennial, but I'm currently at college in Fort Collins.

__________________
"One of the penalties for refusing to participate in politics is that you end up being governed by your inferiors."
~Plato

iTaliAN_ICe

In one form or another, yes.

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"As the government of the United States is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion or tranquility of Musselmen… it is declared… The United States is not a Christian nation any more than it is a Jewish or a Mohammedan nation."

-Treaty of Tripoli, 1794.

Taliesin

I don't have any specific reason for it, but I just have a very hard time imagining that the universe has existed forever. It might just be the way my mind is wired, but the idea of time having no beginning is something that I can't fathom.

__________________
"One of the penalties for refusing to participate in politics is that you end up being governed by your inferiors."
~Plato