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Old 06-21-2007, 08:32 AM   #31 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Troianii View Post
Alabama Supreme Court Chief Justice Roy Moore is being scammed, just like the rest of us. In a moment I will prove that with just one word. Yes, just one word.

As we learn in high school, judges are the interpreters of our laws. They don't write laws, they interpret them. Judges read the words the legislative branch has written and passed; examine the obvious meaning of those words and the context in which they are found; and when there is an ambiguity, they research and consider the legislative history surrounding the text of the law to discover what the legislators meant when they passed it.
The common law rules of interpretation, in general acceptance at the time the Constitution was adopted, didn't say anything about the "obvious meaning" of the words used by the legislators, nor did the rules say to resolve ambiguity by considering the legislative history surrounding the text of the law.

Here is what an expert, the great Justice Joseph Story, said about how to interpret the Constitution.


CHAPTER V.

RULES OF INTERPRETATION.

§ 397. IN our future commentaries upon the constitution we shall treat it, then, as it is denominated in the instrument itself, as a CONSTITUTION of government, ordained and established by the people of the United States for themselves and their posterity. 1 They have declared it the supreme law of the land. They have made it a limited government. They have defined its authority. They have restrained it to the exercise of certain powers, and reserved all others to the states or to the people. It is a popular government. Those who administer it are responsible to the people. It is as popular, and Just as much emanating from the people, as the state governments. It is created for one purpose; the state governments for another. It may be altered, and amended, and abolished at the will of the people. In short, it was made by the people, made for the people, and is responsible to the people. 2

§ 398. In this view of the matter, let us now proceed to consider the rules, by which it ought to be interpreted; for, if these rules are correctly laid down, it will save us from many embarrassments in examining and defining its powers. Much of the difficulty, which has arisen in all the public discussions on this subject, has had its origin in the want of some uniform rules of interpretation, expressly or tacitly agreed on by the disputants. Very different doctrines on this point have been adopted by different commentators; and not unfrequently very different language held by the same parties at different periods. In short, the rules of interpretation have often been shifted to suit the emergency; and the passions and prejudices of the day, or the favour and odium of a particular measure, have not unfrequently furnished a mode of argument, which would, on the one hand, leave the constitution crippled and inanimate, or, on other hand, give it an extent and elasticity, subversive of all rational boundaries.

§ 399. Let us, then, endeavour to ascertain, what are the true rules of interpretation applicable to the constitution; so that we may have some fixed standard, by which to measure its powers, and limit its prohibitions, and guard its obligations, and enforce its securities of our rights and liberties.

§ 400. I. The first and fundamental rule in the interpretation of all instruments is, to construe them according to the sense of the terms, and the intention of the parties. Mr. Justice Blackstone has remarked, that the intention of a law is to be gathered from the words, the context, the subject-matter, the effects and consequence, or the reason and spirit of the law. 3 He goes on to justify the remark by stating, that words are generally to be understood in their usual and most known signification, not so much regarding the propriety of grammar, as their general and popular use; that if words happen to be dubious, their meaning may be established by the context, or by comparing them with other words and sentences in the same instrument; that illustrations may be further derived from the subject-matter, with reference to which the expressions are used; that the effect and consequence of a particular construction is to be examined, because, if a literal meaning would involve a manifest absurdity, it ought not to be adopted; and that the reason and spirit of the law, or the causes, which led to its enactment, are often the best exponents of the words, and limit their application. 4

§ 401. Where the words are plain and clear, and the sense distinct and perfect arising on them, there is generally no necessity to have recourse to other means of interpretation. It is only, when there is some ambiguity or doubt arising from other sources, that interpretation has its proper office. There may be obscurity, as to the meaning, from the doubtful character of the words used, from other clauses in the same instrument, or from an incongruity or repugnancy between the words, and the apparent intention derived from the whole structure of the instrument, or its avowed object. In all such cases interpretation becomes indispensable.

1. "The government of the Union," says Mr. Chief Justice Marshall, in delivering the opinion of the court in McCulloch v. Maryland, 4 Wheat. 316, " is emphatically and truly a government of the people. It emanates from them; its powers are granted by them, and are to be exercised directly on them and for their benefit." Id. 404, 405; see also Cohens v. Virginia, 6 Wheat. R. 264, 413, 414. "The government of the United States was erected," says Mr. Chancellor Kent, with equal force and accuracy, " by the free voice and the joint will of the people of America for their common defence and general welfare." 1 Kent's Comm. Lect. 10, p. 189.

2. I have used the expressive words of Mr. Webster, deeming them as exact as any that could be used. See Webster's Speeches, p, 410, 418, 419; 4 Elliot's Debates, 338, 343.

3. 1 Black. Comm. 59, 60. See also Ayliffe's Pandects, B. 1, tit 4, p. 25, &c.; 1 Domat. Prelim. Book, p. 9; Id. Treatise on Laws, ch. 12, p. 74.

4. Id. See also Woodes. Elem. of Jurisp. p. 36. -- Rules of a similar nature will be found laid down in Vattel, B. 2, ch. 17, from §262 to 310, with more ample illustrations and more various qualifications. But not a few of his rules appear to me to want accuracy and soundness. Bacon's Abridg. title, Statute I. contains an excellent summary of the rules for construing statutes. Domat, also, contains many valuable rule in respect to interpretation. See his Treatise on Laws, c. 12, p. 74 &c. and Preliminary Discourse, tit. 1, §2, p. 6 to 16.


Joseph Story: Commentaries on the Constitution of the United States: Book 3 Chapter 5
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Old 06-21-2007, 08:54 AM   #32 (permalink)
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What evidence supports your accusation that the ACLU endorses man-boy love?
Well, they have put out a statement saying that they do not directly support man-boy love, but that they do support people being able to post internet guides on how to get away with man-boy love because of freedom of speech, which I understand. It is just something that I wouldn't put my name on. It is kind of a catch 22. I'm all for free speech, but at the same time I'm not going to condone or support some sick ass hole that puts out guides on how to get away with raping little boys.
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Old 06-21-2007, 09:49 AM   #33 (permalink)
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Well, they have put out a statement saying that they do not directly support man-boy love, but that they do support people being able to post internet guides on how to get away with man-boy love because of freedom of speech, which I understand.
So why do you make the accusation that the ACLU supports man-boy love when you know it is not true. Do you accusing them of supporting Christianity because they represented Jerry Falwell?

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It is just something that I wouldn't put my name on.
Is that your reason for making the false accusation that the ACLU supports man-boy love?

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It is kind of a catch 22. I'm all for free speech, but at the same time I'm not going to condone or support some sick ass hole that puts out guides on how to get away with raping little boys.
May we see some evidence that the ACLU defends the right to put out guides on how to get away with raping little boys?
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Old 06-21-2007, 10:20 AM   #34 (permalink)
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So why do you make the accusation that the ACLU supports man-boy love when you know it is not true. Do you accusing them of supporting Christianity because they represented Jerry Falwell?



Is that your reason for making the false accusation that the ACLU supports man-boy love?



May we see some evidence that the ACLU defends the right to put out guides on how to get away with raping little boys?
It happened in about 2000.
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Old 06-21-2007, 10:21 AM   #35 (permalink)
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ACLU Statement on Defending Free Speech of Unpopular Organizations (8/31/2000)

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE

NEW YORK--In the United States Supreme Court over the past few years, the American Civil Liberties Union has taken the side of a fundamentalist Christian church, a Santerian church, and the International Society for Krishna Consciousness. In celebrated cases, the ACLU has stood up for everyone from Oliver North to the National Socialist Party. In spite of all that, the ACLU has never advocated Christianity, ritual animal sacrifice, trading arms for hostages or genocide. In representing NAMBLA today, our Massachusetts affiliate does not advocate sexual relationships between adults and children.

What the ACLU does advocate is robust freedom of speech for everyone. The lawsuit involved here, were it to succeed, would strike at the heart of freedom of speech. The case is based on a shocking murder. But the lawsuit says the crime is the responsibility not of those who committed the murder, but of someone who posted vile material on the Internet. The principle is as simple as it is central to true freedom of speech: those who do wrong are responsible for what they do; those who speak about it are not.

It is easy to defend freedom of speech when the message is something many people find at least reasonable. But the defense of freedom of speech is most critical when the message is one most people find repulsive. That was true when the Nazis marched in Skokie. It remains true today.
American Civil Liberties Union : ACLU Statement on Defending Free Speech of Unpopular Organizations

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those who do wrong are responsible for what they do; those who speak about it are not.
While I agree with the second part I quoted, like I said, personally I wouldn't support or defend anyone that puts up guidelines on how to get away with raping little boys, especially when it ends in murder, regardless of whether or not the authors were directly involved.

As you can see, this thread and the post you took exception with was posted several moths ago. I have since tried looking into the matter more and at best it is confusing. There are those who say that NAMBLA never actually had a guide on how to get away with raping a child, and others that say that the controversial material has been removed. If I recall the case was back in 2003 and I recall that initially it was said that the material was on the website. To me this seems to be a case of either sacrificing free speech for decency or vice versa.

From what I've read, NAMBLA's arguement is concerned with "ageism." Meaning that they equate the protection of youth with racism or sexism. Basically they say that not letting children do what they want, even though they have not matured enough to comprehend consequences, physical or mental, is a form of discrimination.

Any ways, again, I'm all for free speech, but had I been a member of the ACLU when this case was going on I would have left the organization because just because I believe someone is free to say what they want it doesn't mean I have to support it, nor does it restrict me from criticizing those that do support it.
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Old 06-21-2007, 11:06 AM   #36 (permalink)
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I think that it's time to stop being polite to those who want to change history.
Who and what are you talking about?

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Originally Posted by Troiani
Separation of church and state is not the law
You must have an unconventional definition of the phrase, or else don't have an accurate knowledge and understanding of U. S. law.

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it is not the history of the law.
Huh? What does that mean?

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They are words taken out of context from a letter.
Separation of Church and State is a figure of speech. It means no civil authority over religion. Are you aware of that?

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Where is God written? All three of our founding documents. Is there a signifigance in this? Maybe in that the MAJORITY (that's over 50%) of our founding fathers were CHRISTIAN PASTORS/PREACHERS!!!
The Christian founders adopted a Godless Constitution. Explain why they did that?

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You might also do well to notice that the First Continental Congress, comprised largely of those who founded this nation, made among it's first orders of business to appoint CHRISITIAN ministers to preside over each house, declared days of Fasting and Prayer, have opened and closed in prayer since their inception, and our first Congress ordered the importing of some 20,000 Bibles for our soldiers fighting the British. Seperation of church and state? You've got it all wrong buddy. Stop trying to change history - it's what it is.
I never cease to be amused by the way the enemies of soul liberty abuse history to avoid the immutable fact that the Godless Constitution grants the government no jurisdiction over religion.

PS: There weren’t two houses in the First Continental Congress and it didn’t appoint Christian ministers to preside over it. However, it did disobey God's law and appoint days of Fasting and or Prayer.

PS: Prayer did not open and close the daily convocations of the Continental Congress. Most years, there was one opening prayer a year. In a few years, there was no prayer whatsoever. There was one 30-day period in 1777 when it had daily opening prayer. However, the practice was terminated.

PS: The official records of the First U. S. Congress show that it did not open or close even one of its daily assemblies with prayer.

PS: The Anglican Church asked the Continental Congress to help it obtain some Bibles during the War. However, no Bibles were ever actually ordered or imported.

PS: For someone who objects to the rewriting of history, you sure to a lot of it, my friend!
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Old 06-21-2007, 08:47 PM   #37 (permalink)
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Earlier, I said I would prove that the doctrine of separation of church and state is a scam, and that I would do so with one word; just one word. That is easily done. On a recent radio show, I handed a co-host a copy of the U.S. Constitution and asked him to read the First Amendment out loud over the air. He began to read, but I stopped him after the first word. "That's enough. You have read enough. You don't have to read further. You have settled the debate already," I said.

What was that one word that ended the debate over separation of church and state. That word is "Congress."

Read it for yourself. The First Amendment says that congress shall make no law establishing a religion. It doesn't say that states cannot establish a religion or observe religious holidays. It doesn't say that cities, counties, or school districts cannot show respect for the Bible or Christianity. The First Amendment doesn't imply in even the vaguest way that it is unconstitutional for a city to erect a manger scene in the town square at Christmas or for a school teacher to offer up a prayer to Almighty God at a graduation ceremony or before daily classes begin. You cannot get that out of the First Amendment, even if you stretch.

It's right there, plain as day. The First Amendment only limits Congress; no one else. Under the First Amendment of the U.S. Constitution, Congress cannot establish a religion or prohibit the free exercise of religion. But, you say, the Founders must have wanted to prevent governments at all levels from showing preference for any one religion over others. Not so. The states would not have given Congress any authority over their actions regarding such matters.
I hope you're just pretending not to know about the 14th Amendment.

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At the time the Constitution was ratified by the thirteen original states, not only did Congress hold long, fervent prayer meetings and quote directly from scripture in speeches and floor debates...
Yeah right. Show us some evidence.


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but a number of the original 13 states had in existence official state churches with official names like The Church of Maryland. Official state churches.
Boy, you didn't disguise your love and affection for human authority over religion for very long, did you?

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And they were overtly Christian.
Religion established by law is not, and cannot possibly be, Christian. Only Satan's religion is established by law.

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Those state churches were not limited by the First Amendment, nor did they cease to exist after the Constitution was ratified. Why? Because the First Amendment did not affect them.
You really love the doctrine of civil jurisdiction over religion, don't you?

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The First Amendment was designed solely to prohibit Congress from establishing a national church like the Church of England; a political church that many of the colonists had come to the New World to escape. The Founders merely wanted to prevent the federal government from forcing one sect of Christianity upon the entire country.
I don't see the words "prohibit Congress from establishing a national church like the Church of England" in the Constitution. Please point out the words that you construe to mean "prohibit Congress from establishing a national church like the Church of England."

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If you think the Founders supported the doctrine of separation of church and state, consider these quotes:

The U.S. Supreme Court in The Church of the Holy Trinity v. U.S. said, "Religion, morality, and knowledge are necessary to good government, and preservation of liberty, and the happiness of mankind." Clearly, the U.S. Supreme Court once thought that the U.S. could not have good government without religion.
I never cease to be amused by the pretexts your side invents to avoid the plain fact that the U. S. Constitution grants the government no jurisdiction whatsoever over religion and the 14th Amendment applies the same principle to the States.

PS: You started off ragging on "activist judges." Now you're quoting one of the most blatant examples of attempted judicial activism in American judicial history.
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Old 06-23-2007, 09:47 AM   #38 (permalink)
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At the time the Constitution was ratified by the thirteen original states, not only did Congress hold long, fervent prayer meetings and quote directly from scripture in speeches and floor debates...
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Originally Posted by FredFlashInTexas
Yeah right. Show us some evidence.
May we assume your non-response means you have no evidence that Congress held "long, fervent prayer meetings and quote[d] directly from scripture in speeches and floor debates?"
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Old 06-23-2007, 10:34 AM   #39 (permalink)
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If you think the Founders supported the doctrine of separation of church and state, consider these quotes:

The U.S. Supreme Court also said in the same case, "Our laws and our institution must necessarily be based upon and embody the teachings of the Redeemer of Mankind. It is impossible that it should be otherwise. In this sense and to this extend, our civilization and our institutions are emphatically Christian."
One of the teachings of the Redeemer was not to render the "things that are God's" to Caesar. In other words, don't surrender authority over your religious opinions, obligations and exercises to the jurisdiction of Caesar.

The founders complied with the Lord's instructions by exempting religion from the cognizance of the Federal Government.

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Has one word of the Constitution been changed since the court issued this decision in 1892, a hundred years after the Constitution was ratified, declaring that America is emphatically Christian?
The Supreme Court doesn't have the authority to declare America Christian. Besides, it was meaningless dicta apparently intended to signal the Court's support for the movement to Christianize the Constitution what was being agitated at the time.

The Court badly misjudged the sentiments of the American people, who overwhelming rejected the proposals to Christianize the Constitution. The wanna be activist, Justice Brewer, who wrote the silly diatribe, spent a lot of time giving lectures about the opinion as if he was not its author, and explaining what he really meant.
But in what sense can it be called a Christian nation? Not in the sense that Christianity is the established religion or that people are in any matter compelled to support it. On the contrary, the Constitution specifically provides that 'Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof.' Neither is it Christian in the sense that all of its citizens are either in fact or name Christian. On the contrary, all religions have free scope within our borders. Numbers of our people profess other religions, and many reject all. Nor is it Christian in the sense that a profession of Christianity is a condition of holding office or otherwise engaging in public service, or essential to recognition either politically or socially. In fact, the government as a legal organization is independent of all religions.

Source: The United States A Christian Nation, by David J. Brewer, Associate Justice of the United States Supreme Court, The John C. Winston Company (1905) pp 11-12 .
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Old 06-26-2007, 09:10 AM   #40 (permalink)
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"an establishment of a national religion"

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The final version of the First Amendment says, "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof." Part of the legislative history of the First Amendment includes a longer version that included the words, "...nor shall any national religion be established...".
One of the consequences of interpreting "an establishment of religion" to mean "an establishment of a national religion", is that it makes an absurdity out of the free exercise clause. Blackstone's Fourth Rule of Interpretation requires that we reject an interpretation if its effects and consequences are absurd.
4. AS to the effects and confequence, the rule is, where words bear either none, or a very abfurd fignification, if literally underftood, we muft a little deviate from the received fenfe of them. Therefore the Bolognian law, mentioned by Puffendorf m, which enacted “that whoever drew blood in the ftreets fhould be punifhed with the utmoft *****ity,” was held after long debate not to extend to the furgeon, who opened the vein of a perfon that fell down in the ftreet with a fit.

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