No actually my point was that because people believe in God and in after life where they will be accountable for actions here they would be less apt to Rape or murder. It has nothing to do with forgiveness its about stopping the action before it occurs out of fear or consequences.

Thats because unlike most I recognize that a lot of people without the "fear of God" in them would run rampant. Saying religion and morality do not go to together is about as absurd as placing a screen door on a submarine.

What happens to the simple concept of God wanting us to choose him? Like a bride choosing her bridegroom? He gave us free will so we had a choice. Yes, he could have chosen to make us perfect then what do we need with a god to lean on and be a part of us to make us whole? Our imperfections are not imperfections, they are the reason to need a god that help us grow and become perfection in our need of him and acceptance of his love.

Do you not think he grieves over our decisions?

People keep finding arguments to not need a god to complete them. Are your motives not similar to his in finding "logical" reasons to avoid the choice? Just a thought.

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A politician thinks of the next election. A statesman, of the next generation.
- James Freeman Clarke

Bruno Bauer thinking!!!



science is belief in itsself as well we believe in atoms but cann you really show me an atom?? Alot of theroies are good educated guesses going on faith.but as a student of science we must see that what we study comes from somewhere there is a creating force behind everything.Our own bodies is like a machinein fact all that we as man have created we created from studing things in this earth that we had no hand in making. Science shows that the earth follows laws and everything inside it followes laws, this alone points to an intellegent designer because the earth is full of intellegence.


He is a God to the entire universe

No its either he does exist or he doesent up to you to deciede ther is more proof that he does exist than proof that he does not

Every Christian church I am aware of tells its followers that "Christ will forgive all of your sins." That simply means that any act the Christian commits is forgiveable according to their religion.

Not living by that religion I don't believe that any intentionally wrongful act against my fellow man is forgiveable therefore I choose not to commit them.

Sorry but I believe my position of not commiting a harmful act trumps your seeking forgiveness for commiting one.

Saying that people without a fear of god would run rampant is as absurd as placing a screen door on a submarine.

What happens to the simple concept of realizing that when people write a book that it is limited to the knowledge or imagination of those that wrote the book?

And by the way, only someone that is insecure needs someone to lean on. Why are all of those that believe in god so insecure that they cannot find fulfillment within themselves?

Who says that they are insecure? if by your definition then you are insecure, for you did not aquire knowledge all by your self you leaned on someone you read someones books your knowledge is not your knowledge

If they are not insecure then why do they feel that they need a god?

Well then Bruno sounds like a smart man to me.

actually we logically deduce the existence of atoms, ever heard of an atom bomb? pretty complicated stuff if you're not aware of atoms existing..

intelligent design is our impression of things, doesnt mean there was meaning to create things.

lol



Logically deduce: meaning that you make a good educated guess, you rely on faith to explain the existence of atoms. Do you know what atoms look like?? no you dont we rely on faith based on good deep studing to deduce the existence of atoms, if we study the earth(including atoms ect...) then we can logically deduce the existence of a creating force ... God.(formula cr=G creating force = God)


I agree and disagree at the same time however the earth and the universe is of intellegent design, if we can learn from it then it shows that what we learn from is teaching us, this shows intelligence it is much deeper than an impression.

are you insecure when you need a toliet to drop a load? are you insecure when you read other peoples books and derive knowledge from it, are you insecure that when you dont know a word you look it up in a dictionary or ask a teacher for help?? No you are not you rely on intellegent people likewise the people who believe in God believe he is the originator of knowledge and we rely on Him.

It is human nature to believe in the divine, is it human nature to want something more knowing you have a finite amount of time "Alive". Does this mean God is make believe because we all know we are mortal, I do not think so. Do you think 90% of the world all suffer from some mass form of delusional hysteria because they believe in a God?

"One of the most far-reaching consequences of the rationalism of the Enlightenment was the undermining of basic Christian faith among the educated classes. The effect was unintended because the project of many Enlightenment philosophers was to prove the existence of God using reason: Descartes and Leibniz assumed that God's existence could be rationally proved, indeed God was a necessary part of their philosophy. "

As far as the argument God and morals do not belong together. I like what Kant had to say on this; "Kant attempted to show how philosophy could prove the existence of God. Unfortunately, for him his previous work showed that we could not know reality directly as thing-in-itself. What is real in itself is beyond our experience. Even if God exists, we can not know God as he really is.

For Kant the Christian could have faith in God, and this faith would be consonant with reason and the categorical imperative. Given that human beings have the autonomy to create moral values, it would not be irrational to believe in a God who gives purpose to the moral realm.

Again here God "Gives Purpose to the moral Realm".. That is a powerful statement.

"Søren Kierkegaard agreed with Kant that the existence of God could not be proven by reason. However Kierkegaard did not think that it was rational to believe in God, rather one should have faith in God even if this seems to reason to be absurd. To put it another way reason has no place in faith. God is beyond reason.

Kierkegaard is regarded as the first existentialist. "

TRANSCENDENTAL ARGUMENT, a.k.a. PRESUPPOSITIONALIST (I)
(1) If reason exists then God exists.
(2) Reason exists.
(3) Therefore, God exists.

COSMOLOGICAL ARGUMENT, a.k.a. FIRST CAUSE ARGUMENT (I)
(1) If I say something must have a cause, it has a cause.
(2) I say the universe must have a cause.
(3) Therefore, the universe has a cause.
(4) Therefore, God exists

ARGUMENT FROM MULTIPLICITY (V)
(1) There exists a web page Hundreds of Proofs of God’s Existence
(This site is where a few of these quotes come from)
(2) That page has hundreds of purported proofs of the existence of God.
(3) They can't all be wrong.
(4) Therefore, God exists.

Read this site its a quick read..
A HELP IN UNDERSTANDING WHAT GOD IS - Does God Exist?

"Now the reason that I have told you this little story is to give you a foundation by which you can understand God. When you read, "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth" (Genesis 1:1), you are reading a description analogous to Flatland. The concept is that, a God, who is in a higher dimension than are we, a God who has the same kind of relationship to us which the sphere had to Flatland, that, this kind of being touched our little "Flatland," so to speak, and in violation of all of our laws of science created matter out of nothing. God is so superior to us, he exists in such a higher dimension than do we that what is natural and ordinary to him is miraculous to us. The Bible recognizes this concept and uses it in every single description of God. "

Read this as well "Why I left Atheism"
Why I Left Atheism

I still think Descartes said it best and I am going to assume even atheist will credit this man with being supremely gifted on an intellectual level.

Descartes' Proof for the Existence of God

You have likely heard that it is impossible to prove that God exists. You have heard wrong. Not only can the existence of God be proven, denying the proof undermines rational thought. It is true that God does not need anyone, let alone this website, to prove His existence. The Bible teaches that the existence of God is so obvious that we are without excuse for denying it. No one needs proof that God exists, I simply offer these 8 steps to the logical proof of God's existence in addition to what you already know (and may be suppressing).

last but not least I leave you with this website 8 reasons why God does exist.

Proof That God Exists: welcome

I have read everything you have had to say about the non existence of God if we are to debate this further I request you read all of my post as well as the links, respectfully. Because until we truly understand one anothers points we can in reality not debate any further. Without the willingness to see each others points, this is at best an exercise in futility. I am a former Atheist myself so I feel I am qualified to have this discussion with you since I know where your coming from.

I look forward to our continued discourse on this issue.

__________________
A politician thinks of the next election. A statesman, of the next generation.
- James Freeman Clarke

Yeah, we actually do know what atoms look like. Just recently scientists were able to take the first ever picture of an electron, which is far more difficult that capturing film of the entire atom. We discovered atoms by the scientific method, and evidence of their existence.
Electron Caught On Film For The First Time | Scientific Blogging

If we study earth, we can logically deduce that it was formed by a natural process of cosmic evolution. There is no evidence for a creator.

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Caltex read my post above yours I offer you the same thing I offered Shiva

__________________
A politician thinks of the next election. A statesman, of the next generation.
- James Freeman Clarke