I'm not the one to whom you were referring, but I'll address you point by point anyways. Hopefully, I will be a friendlier opponent than some others

If God is so childish and downright ignorant to send someone to Hell simply for not believing in him--especially given the fact that he provided us no evidence of his existence--then yes, I will gladly go to Hell. Fuck whatever God would do that.

Christians and Jews accepted that "lack of explainability" for many things that are now explainable. Fact of the matter is, as science understands more, God enters the picture less. Yes, there are things science will assuredly never understand, and that is why God has retreated to them: the beginning of the universe, etc.



If God loves me, why does he threaten to send me to Hell?

Also, I'm no defender of Islam (I hate it more even than Christianity/Judaism), but I believe the Bible says at a few points to stone women lying with men out of wedlock and a few other passages. Not to mention, Yahweh gives the Israelites free license to kill certain peoples, such as the Canaanites. Criticisms of Islam on the grounds you provided work just as well against C/J, my friend.



There is no evidence to support God's existence. Prove me wrong.

Most reasonable atheists accept that this is the only reason to not believe in God. The reason to believe in God, and I think most Christians would agree with this, is on faith--one simply has faith in God, something beyond all logic and empiricism. This is fine--we just don't share that faith.


Yes, many of the more liberal Christians/Jews/Muslims accept scientific evidence, and accept proven scientific theories like evolution, gravity, etc.

However, many don't. This is where I take issue.

No, he did not believe in a personal God, he believed in Spinoza's God: in other words, he was (more or less) a pantheist. Look up some quotes of his if you don't believe me... he accepted (as I do) religion as a valuable source of ethical principles and things of that nature, but did not believe in a personal God of any variety.

To claim that only dumb people believe in God is very ignorant, though, I will concur with you on that.



Doesn't this seem a littttttle out of proportion? Even the worst of men have committed only a finite sin, and yet God (in his justice) gives them an infinite punishment? I question the righteousness of such a God.



"Instruct the ignorant is fine," and the Catholics have contributed much to this end. The trick is to avoid pedantry, and to avoid "instruction" through belligerence. There comes a point where you must accept that others, even if you think them ignorant, will not have your views and will not budge. To continue after this has been realized--normally, it can be realized quite quickly--is to disrespect man's autonomy of thought, and become a nuisance.



You are right. However, many, many, many people hate under the banner of God. This is sad, but prevalent.


More power to you, and reasonable atheists do not challenge that. Those who do are as ignorant as the worst of the religious. The only thing we ask is that you do not force your beliefs on others, personally or socially (i.e. in the government).

Not according to the Mormons. When i die i can choose to accept Jesus and god as the one true god...or not. Thats if they do exist of course. You see, your religion says i can't make amends for my errors when i'm proven right, but the mormons say differently. Confusing.

In Greece, Rome, Aztec, Mayan. all there gods were made to explain certain things. many gods to explain one or more things. but than the Judeo-Christian god comes along and he is an omnipotent, all powerful all knowing god who does everything by himself. This god was a way for those who didnt believe in the pagan religion any more to have one god to believe. Your religion says there things humanity is not meant to know which is why religion and science are constantly at ends with eachother. Were not meant to know how the universe began, how the human body works, etc, etc.



I have a quote down on this page from the Qu'ran. its doesnt even mention in the slightest since that you should kill for your god. But like all religions, its contradicts itself. On one side it says to be tolerant of other religions, but also says to praactice every day at converting those who dont believe. But only the extremists practice this, just like only christian extremists kill those in the name of god when there religion forbays killing.



Your going to show how my belief is wrong by a simple reason. thats very...high and mighty of you. Have you blessed any sick children lately.
But your question.
God, according to all the interpretations of your god, his god and her god is an all powerful all knowing being who grants free will but your future is already decided for you. Who created us as we all today 10000 years ago (our time) yet every other species on the planet has evolved. Proof of our evolution is lies according to the bible. and this god, who can do anything and everything doesnt lift a finger to help those who pray day and night for help. But thats not the only thing. this god, who CAN, but doesnt, do anything and everything defies the laws of physics simply by his/her/its existance that its impossible. That nothing can create something from nothing. that something can not exist without a reason and have no cause to its creation.



[/quote]Many Christians believe in the Big Bang Theory and the like. We understand that the story of Adam and Eve was writen when people had no concept of billions of years. As God lives in all time and all space, His seven days may be billions of years. All Christains agree that no matter how the would came about, God ordered it that way, and we will never know for sure while on earth how the universe came about.[/quote]
Not all christians believe in the big bang or Adam and Eve is fake. a creationism museam opened up in the states which makes blatent lies about humans living with dinosaurs. Not only is this impossible, but nondeniable proof that your religion is fractured at the seams. that theres too many interprations of the one true religion and god. Christians believe god is right and that he made the universe his way. How else would he have made it, our way?
Evolution and the big bang may not prove how the universe came to be, or if it ever came to be. We dont know if its always was here or if it popped into existance one day. But were looking, were not leaving it up to faith that everything will be explained to us because a book and preachers told us that theres a kingdom of heaven for all believers where we will live in peace and harmony with everything we could ever want.

Albert Einstien did not believe in the Judeo-Christian god, or the Jewish god for that matter considering he was jewish. He believe that there must have been some sort of a higher being, but in no way was he happy with religion in general. My point still stand, too many interpretations.

Are you really going to take a jab at my spelling on an online forum. thats low.


According to the religion of the greeks and romans, hell was a place everyone went when they die. where there minds simply existed. it wasnt a place of torment and pain for all eternity.
If your correct that those who dont believe in god cant change there mind after death, than there must be a lot of amazing people in hell with which i can spend my time. Ghandi, Confucious, Ceaser, Plato. Not to mention all the Native Americans, Aztecs, Mayan and my personal favorite, Sun Tzu.
Why would i spend all eternity with those who have lived there life with religion and could have killed in the name of god, because hey, they believed in god, they must be in heaven.


Only the Ignorant according to you. Would you not also intruct Ghandi to believe in your god. but he's not ignorant. he saved millions of people by leading a peaceful march against the British. People are only ignorant according to your definition of intelligence.



But those before you have hated the Jewish, the Witches, the Gypsy's, the Gays, the Abortionists, the Pagans. How can you say no christian/Catholic hates when you have waged wars in the name of your god to reclaim the holy land against the muslims?
Does it no also say to stone those who work on the Sabbath (saturday) you might not hate than, but you certainly dont like them when you can stone them. how about loving your father or mother more than god, or turning the other cheek when your brother says to worship another god?



[/quote]I have taken a long, hard look at life. Everything I have been through has strenghten my fatith and given my the knowledge and strenght to debate with you right now.[/quote]

Believe that, but remember. my life and strengthened my resolve that religion is wrong for people, that its kills and destroy's. I have been through plenty to give me strength to denounce god and religion and superstition.
All your life, which you credit towards god, its based of your understanding of life itself. Your experiences taught you to believe in god, but my experiences taught me to believe that maybe theres more to life than simple worship in god. Maybe i'm wrong, maybe i'm right. but i'm going to live my life the way i choose, and not the way some make-believe god and some preacher is going to tell to.

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"For every man there is a purpose he sets up in his life, let yours be the doing of all good deeds." - Qur'an
Give every man your ear, but few thy voice. Take each man's censure, but reserve thy judgment.[Hamlet] -Shakespeare, William
Where there is doubt, there is freedom -Latin Proverb

This debate has been getting far too personally aggressive. A couple infractions have already been issued. Discuss the issue, not the poster.

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"Ask not what your country can do for you; ask what you can do for your country."
-John F. Kennedy

"Education begins the gentleman, but reading, good company and reflection must finish him."
-John Locke

"What worries you, masters you."
-John Locke

I wonder if this god you say exists has anything to say about your being a self proclaimed queen of the universe. Giving him a run for his money?

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Neither am I the means to any end others may wish to accomplish. I am not a tool for their use. I am not a servant of their needs. I am not a bandage for their wounds. I am not a sacrifice on their altars. ... I owe nothing to my brothers, nor do I gather debts from them. I ask no one to live for me, nor do I live for others. I covet no mans soul, nor is my soul theirs to covet.

Ayn Rand, Anthem.

I'm sure there is probably a thread about this, but this sort of thing is exactly why I can't help but laugh at the idea of a christian/ catholic god.

The new 7 deadly sins.

(1)genetic modification;
(2) human experimentations,
(3) polluting the environment;
(4) social injustice;
(5) causing poverty;
(6) financial gluttony;
(7) taking drugs.

Does the Vatican not see the irony in this? They've been unimaginably wealthy for hundreds and hundreds of years, but they're going to turn around and tell us not to be financially gluttonous? GTFO of here. Where do I sign up?

This obviously isn't the primary reason I do not buy into the Christian stuff. Token Liberal pretty much summed up my feelings on the matter.

1) I was created by a god who says that I have to worship him on this ridiculous planet he created so that I can die and worship him in perpetuity or face being thrown in a lake of fire for not being his friend? I never asked to be created, I don't want to have to spend every celestial moment worshiping someone for all eternity, burning in a lake of fire is preferable to making some all powerful supernatural being feel better about himself. But that is just me.

2) Faith, by definition, is a belief in something that can not be proven. So by admitting that you have faith is admitting you have no proof. Saying you have proof is saying that you have no faith. You can not have it both ways. It is amazing to me that this is the sales pitch we're given.

"Yeah, um... your just going to have to trust me on this one. You see, we have this book that was written a very long time ago called the Torah, and well.... we've added to it a little.... and its been transcribed and translated numerous times, and there are some parts that the church has decided to leave out.... but seriously, just trust me..... tithe 10% and don't do certain things and you don't have to burn in hell for eternity."

3) The stories are the same. Its not like the Jesus story was the first to tell of a savior/ enlightened/ godly individual being born of a virgin mother. Pagan traditions abound in Christianity. Don't re-wrap a turd and try to sell it to me.

__________________
Neither am I the means to any end others may wish to accomplish. I am not a tool for their use. I am not a servant of their needs. I am not a bandage for their wounds. I am not a sacrifice on their altars. ... I owe nothing to my brothers, nor do I gather debts from them. I ask no one to live for me, nor do I live for others. I covet no mans soul, nor is my soul theirs to covet.

Ayn Rand, Anthem.

Many Christians believe in the Big Bang Theory and the like. We understand that the story of Adam and Eve was writen when people had no concept of billions of years. As God lives in all time and all space, His seven days may be billions of years. All Christains agree that no matter how the would came about, God ordered it that way, and we will never know for sure while on earth how the universe came about.[/quote]
Not all christians believe in the big bang or Adam and Eve is fake. a creationism museam opened up in the states which makes blatent lies about humans living with dinosaurs. Not only is this impossible, but nondeniable proof that your religion is fractured at the seams. that theres too many interprations of the one true religion and god. Christians believe god is right and that he made the universe his way. How else would he have made it, our way?
Evolution and the big bang may not prove how the universe came to be, or if it ever came to be. We dont know if its always was here or if it popped into existance one day. But were looking, were not leaving it up to faith that everything will be explained to us because a book and preachers told us that theres a kingdom of heaven for all believers where we will live in peace and harmony with everything we could ever want.



Albert Einstien did not believe in the Judeo-Christian god, or the Jewish god for that matter considering he was jewish. He believe that there must have been some sort of a higher being, but in no way was he happy with religion in general. My point still stand, too many interpretations.



Are you really going to take a jab at my spelling on an online forum. thats low.




According to the religion of the greeks and romans, hell was a place everyone went when they die. where there minds simply existed. it wasnt a place of torment and pain for all eternity.
If your correct that those who dont believe in god cant change there mind after death, than there must be a lot of amazing people in hell with which i can spend my time. Ghandi, Confucious, Ceaser, Plato. Not to mention all the Native Americans, Aztecs, Mayan and my personal favorite, Sun Tzu.
Why would i spend all eternity with those who have lived there life with religion and could have killed in the name of god, because hey, they believed in god, they must be in heaven.




Only the Ignorant according to you. Would you not also intruct Ghandi to believe in your god. but he's not ignorant. he saved millions of people by leading a peaceful march against the British. People are only ignorant according to your definition of intelligence.





But those before you have hated the Jewish, the Witches, the Gypsy's, the Gays, the Abortionists, the Pagans. How can you say no christian/Catholic hates when you have waged wars in the name of your god to reclaim the holy land against the muslims?
Does it no also say to stone those who work on the Sabbath (saturday) you might not hate than, but you certainly dont like them when you can stone them. how about loving your father or mother more than god, or turning the other cheek when your brother says to worship another god?



[/quote]I have taken a long, hard look at life. Everything I have been through has strenghten my fatith and given my the knowledge and strenght to debate with you right now.[/quote]

Believe that, but remember. my life and strengthened my resolve that religion is wrong for people, that its kills and destroy's. I have been through plenty to give me strength to denounce god and religion and superstition.
All your life, which you credit towards god, its based of your understanding of life itself. Your experiences taught you to believe in god, but my experiences taught me to believe that maybe theres more to life than simple worship in god. Maybe i'm wrong, maybe i'm right. but i'm going to live my life the way i choose, and not the way some make-believe god and some preacher is going to tell to.[/quote]

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"Dear God, please forgive us for wounding our mothers and killing our children."

"The real poverty is that we must kill our children to live the way we chose."
-Mother Theresa

"Evil prevails when good men do nothing."

Santa claus you seem to have completely misunderstood Pascals wager. Pascal argues for case of BELIEVING in god not for the existence of god. Also it doesnt really work as a numerical solution as Pascal uses infinity to represent heaven and hell.

We can't positively be sure that there isn't a God simply because we can't be 100% sure that all that science has postulated as fact is indeed factual. However, if we assume that it is, then it is simply logically impossible for there to be a Creator because it is impossible for matter and energy to be created, thus the universe cannot have been created. The laws of physics prohibit it.

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"The only purpose for which power can be rightfully exercised over any member of a civilized community, against his will, is to prevent harm to others. His own good, either physical or moral, is not a sufficient warrant." -John Stuart Mill

Um????
Why did you simply repost what i've said Baby Fang without actually saying anything new. I don't know whether Locke deleted your comments towards me and left the rest, or you simply forgot to add it in but...i would like to hear your comments.
And Locke, i give permission for Fang to say what ever he wants, do punish him for it. A little debate never hurt anyone. Until someone brought a gun to the debate, than it hurts a lot of people.

__________________
"For every man there is a purpose he sets up in his life, let yours be the doing of all good deeds." - Qur'an
Give every man your ear, but few thy voice. Take each man's censure, but reserve thy judgment.[Hamlet] -Shakespeare, William
Where there is doubt, there is freedom -Latin Proverb

Not that I disagree with you, but if the universe wasn't somehow created, how does it now exist? It is equally illogical and defiant of the laws of physics to claim that the universe has existed forever.

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