Is it not equally stupid to believe in a different god than? Zues, Ra, Posiedon, Athena, Ares, Thor, etc, etc. People believed in those gods before, it must have been stupid to not believe in them at one time to. And what about Allah and Jehovah? Sure, just another name for your god, but two different bibles. Would it be stupid to believe in those gods.
Than how do you know your right. With so many interpretations of the same god, how do you know yours is right? would it not be stupid to base all your faith on one interpretation of a god instead of not believing in either god.
No Proof.
I could shout out proof here for the next hour about evolution and how much time it takes light to reach us. thus disproving a 10000 year old galaxy/earth. How man couldnt have lived with dinosaurs. etc, etc, etc.
But why would i waste my time. your already convinced that your right despite all the proof stacked up against you. because instead of looking for a different approach to life you base your facts of ignorant peoples works and theories that are essentially disproven.
Pascals Wager itself is none other than one mans outlook on life itself. thats what those types of...whatever they are called, are. It wont believe my life to be a waste if i somehow die and find myself standing face to face with St. Peter and the Holy Trinity. In fact, if thats true i might accept the other prize and go straight to hell, because i don't generally like the Judeo-Christian god/religion. But hey, maybe the entire religion is wrong about God. Which brings me back to my earlier post, how do you know your not wrong?
You say theres no proof, so you must be right. i say theres plenty of proof (thats based on fact, not faith) but you wont listen to it because your a born again christian.


BabyFang. You too my friend along with Santa Claus (haha, do you also believe in old St. Nick) need to redefine your standing on faith. If you seriously believe you can best me in a debate on proof against god vs proof for god than please, try me. If you seriously believe anyone theologist/religious expert can best any atheist/agnostic/humanist/freethinker, in a debate on the same, than please. provide proof. It wont happen, because where your kind base your attacks on faith and pure hatred my kind base our side on proof and logic.
It is stupid to put all faith behind one thing with so many interpretations and deny all logic that disproves ones faith.

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"For every man there is a purpose he sets up in his life, let yours be the doing of all good deeds." - Qur'an
Give every man your ear, but few thy voice. Take each man's censure, but reserve thy judgment.[Hamlet] -Shakespeare, William
Where there is doubt, there is freedom -Latin Proverb

While it is impossible to prove that there are no gods, because there is no way to test it, we can disprove the notion of the Christian god using logic. The Christian god is said to be omnipotent, omniscient, and omni-benevolent, and that man has free will. The problem is that all three of these are conflicting characteristics. If he is all knowing, then everything that will ever happen, and has ever happened is already known by him, and thus there is no free will. If god is omni-benevolent, then he is perfectly good and will only do good things, but this god has sat by and watched man ravaged by plague, watched his earthly creatures suffer, and has even caused the pain himself, meaning that he is not omni-benevolent. If he is all powerful, then he has no restrictions, and thus there is no reason why he could not create a utopia. He would have known Adam and Eve would become sinners before hand, being all knowing, and would have had the power to make man perfectly good, and not instinctive sinners. Instead we blame ourselves for our fatal flaws, but if this god up there was so good, he would not have made us so fatally flawed. Thus it is not our fault we are bad, it is his.

I could go on much more, but the point is pretty much out there, there Christian god cannot exist as he is claimed to, as there are many conflicting characteristics, and stories.

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I read the Does God Exist thing and i got to the part with the premisis and I think I can argue against it.

Premise 1. Whatever begins to exist must have a cause.
Premise 2. The Universe began to exist.
Conclusion: Therefeore the Universe has a cause.

I would conversly say that a cause is a result of something that exists, that indeed has a cause. That is to say whatever caused our current state of existance, itself has a cause. Basically, there is no need to think there was ever a beggining. It, the universe, all of space, has allways existed, never started and is never going to end. In fact, I would argue against the whole idea of beggining and ends, at least of sigularities. Yes, a man may die, and that death is the end of the construct of that man as he is, but it is not neccissarily an end, since all that was that man continues to be a part of the universe. Essentialy there can only be "end" and beggining" of a state of existance, but not of existance itself. the idea of end is often wrongly used as well as the idea of beggining, for example we teach our children that a tree beggins with a seed, but that is not really true, that seed came from another tree which came from a seed, which came from a tree and so on, but we can't expect children to grasp such a continuous idea. Also, the idea of a beggining of the universe suggests that there was a before the universe at which point nothing existed. But something can't come from nothing, and if God existed to create the universe as we know it, God would be that something, What then is God? Atheists think God doesn't exist, or atleast they say that but really what they are doing is saying thay don't belive in God as it is defined by some or a specific religion, it depends on the atheist. I once considered my self an atheist, and might could still say that I don't belive in God as do Christians, at least, but I think I can prove that something Godly does exist, but bare with me I use The word God loosly:
First what is God? God is the ultimate existance. And as defined by most christians at least, God is all powerfull and all knowing. So where is there evidence of such a thing... The universe, not just the known universe, but everything that exists. When everything, all mass, all light...everything is considered as one thing (of course composed of manythings just as any living thing) then we have something that pretty much meets the common description of God. I could even say that the universe is all powerfull, since it as our environment has control of all things. But that is to imply that it has consciousness, and I wouldn't go so far as to say the universe as one is conscieous, although it is composed of beings called humans which are conscieous, (perhaps we are the universe's (God's) Brain cells, at least metaphoricly). Anyways lets go on to say the univerese/God is all knowing. But it would be like a scar made by a knife on a tree, that scar is like a memory its effect will forever be there, the tree is not conscious that it is there but it is still memorized in time, thus it is known but no known consciously. But that is a weird thought I'm not so sure it is accuratly described. Anyways I at least think that the everything is God. I think most christians fail to come to this conclusion because they personafy God, and think that since he created the universe he is not part of it. But like we humans who creat a tattoo on our arm, that tattoo is then a prat of ourselves. We argue against evolution but fail to see that if God is the universe then evolution would be God's creation, the bible may not put it that way but the bible was created by men who were scientificly limited and thus there understanding of what God is was inhibited, but now we have th eability to Understand God better. But as people often say, "you can never understand god" and then there are stories of angels being unable to see God. All of it makes perfect since in the light of God being the everything, our universe. Since how can we ever see all of the universe, if it is infinite, and how can we ever know all there is to know about this infinite universe? I guess I am kinda spueing my beliefs here, but It all seems pretty logical to me.

I'd like to add one more thing that is kinda interesting, a thought I had, If God is all knowing, then God cannot be conscious, since if you already know it all, there is nothing to think about all you can do is act, it would be like being nothing but instinct.

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i agree what you say. if there are god why do bad things happen. there say god create the world and he loves people then why would anybody who loves something let it die. i think in this world, this are prove that money and powver are only god.

__________________
"It's not only hockey, it's a big event."- Foppa

"Globalisation has made us more vulnerable."-Anna Lindh

"I don't have respect for the people that made the decisions
to go on with war."-Avril

My thoughts:

The Christians are right, in the sense that we who do not believe in God cannot disprove him. Attempts to disprove God are as futile as attempts to prove him--you just can't verify the existence of a concept as nebulous as God (nor will you change anyone's mind, but that's a different matter).

The "Designer" argument, whereby the world fitting us so perfectly leads directly to the inference that there must be a creator is a silly argument as well; evolution explains it just as nicely, and more simply. Moreover, just because something looks so perfectly fit doesn't mean it needs a creator.

The "complexity of life" argument, wherein our complexity must require a designer breaks down as well. Evolution again explains it. Also, just because something is "designed" doesn't mean it needs a designer. Given enough time, and enough trials, a brand new Lexus could form somewhere in the universe, without any designer other than natural forces. It's unlikely as hell, which is why you don't see it, but not impossible.

Why I don't believe in God:
I see absolutely no reason to. I have no evidence against him, true; I also have no evidence for him. Given this, why should I choose to arbitrary believe in a god? I have no evidence for or against a giant man-eating purple hippopotamus orbiting Alpha Centauri, yet I, for whatever silly reason, tend not to believe in Him. Fact of the matter is, it is infinitely more likely that something does not than is its existence. The only way to get me to believe in something with such odds against it (as everything has) is empiricism, in the loose sense of stuff I can experience and stuff that can be proven from my experience. Yes, that includes atoms.

A sidenote: Even if Yahweh is real, why the fuck should I worship him? I never see this question proposed: given the awful nature of the world and of man, and the fact that [b]I[/i] didn't ask to be here, why the fuck should I worship the dude who brought me here? What has he done for me? Sure, he created me, but like I said... I never asked for it, that was his choice. Sure, he can punish me eternally, but doesn't it seem a little cheap to worship something on fear of punishment?

Which leads me to Pascal's wager... the coward's argument.

Okay, I accept your challenge.
I'm pathetic? You would rather go to hell than even though when you die you will see St.Peter at the Pearly Gates. By the way, death is too late to change your mind.
Mulitiple gods were invented to explain all things, while Christians and Jews have accepted that not all things can be explained, and that there are things that we will never understand until we reach Heaven and obtain a perfect state.

Yes, they refer to the same God in a sense, but the interpretations of God are very different. The Koran says that everyone must be converted are killed. I know that only extreme Musilums follow this, but the point stands: would the God that would send His Only Son to be ruthlessly tourtured mentally, physically, and spiritually, to save ALL mankind, would tell His people to kill? No. God is merciful. He loves all, even if they don't love him. That's right, ResidentAthiest, God loves you.

Give me a reason why you believe God does not exist, I'll show you how your
wrong.

Many Christians believe in the Big Bang Theory and the like. We understand that the story of Adam and Eve was writen when people had no concept of billions of years. As God lives in all time and all space, His seven days may be billions of years. All Christains agree that no matter how the would came about, God ordered it that way, and we will never know for sure while on earth how the universe came about.

Also, you think only ignorant people belive in God? Albert Einstien felt that the more he learned about the universe the more he felt there was some sort of Higher Being in charge of it all.

You obviously don't have a clue what Hell is, do you? It is relentless pain, physically, mentally, and spiritually, FOR ALL ETERNITY.

Refer to my earlier statement on what pathetic really is.

No true Christain hates. To hate any one of God's cratures is to hate God. The Bible clearly states "Love your neighbor as yourself" "Love your enemy" "Turn the other cheek" and "What you do to the least of my brothers, you do to me" the "me" being God.

If you think Chirstians hate, then, buddy, you don't have a clue what your talking about.

I have taken a long, hard look at life. Everything I have been through has strenghten my fatith and given my the knowledge and strenght to debate with you right now.

there is no evidence for gods existence. there is no evidence for gods inexistence. its only about believing it or not believing it. theologians cant proove anything either.

"Premise 1. Whatever begins to exist must have a cause."

Why must it have a cause? People love it to be important. Compared to nature and the universe we are unimpressive. Why does every life must have a meaning?

I think there are a lot stupid things, but this isn't.
I don't believe in god, but others do. Why? Everyone needs something or somebody to believe in.
Not to believe in god doesn't mean not to believe at all.

One may believes in love, the other one in humanity, in world peace, in a better world, in god, in justice...
Behind the things I listed are ideologies, and people believe in ideologies. An ideology shows what could be possible and what may becomes our target later.
Ideologies and religions are about dreams and utopia. Without dreams we couldn't survive psychically, I believe. It would mean stagnancy.

Belief is not a religious thing only...

Chirstians dont hate????? wow could have fooled me you dont hate when rats infest your home??? misquitos bite you during the summer? you dont kill any of gods animals? do you love aids??? do you love cancer??? do you love all the viruses that exist that can and do kill animals/plants/humans???

god love all even if they dont love him????? in the bible god kills many ppl. god loved them also??? if loving is to kill them when they dont listen to you then we have alot of loving ppl in this world...


im sorry if this next part insults you( you religion) a bit but i cant explain it differently and get the same response.....


Catholics are the worst.. that have the most money and the largest nicest churches ive ever seen. and i dont mean it in a nice way.. if it is true we should help our fellow man when we can why does the pope need a gold cup and super nice clothing??? why do churches need italian marble floors or gold candle stick holders??? if your religion is the true religion then you churches should all be simple buildings. large enough to hold the faithful for prayer. warm during the winter cool during the summer, dry place to sit/relax while the priest talks. why are they so damn nice??? all that money they collect every week could have been to much better use to help creat world peace.. feed the hungry. cloth the needy, shealter the homless.. i know they currently do do some of these things but they are not doing enough.. religion should not like a company all prceeds not used for reg upkeep of the church should be used to help ppl. but sadly taht is not the case...

ok enough on that ....



this is my proof there is no god.. how could there be a god(in the christian sense) while ppl die of hunger in africa??? so much pain and suffering exist in the world. why does god give children lukimia????? why did god give my aunt cancer???? why did god. if there was a all loving all powerful god there would be no suffering. no pain just happyness. ppl would only die of old age.
and dont try to feed me the line that he didnt and the devil made all that... he is GOD!!! all powerful. there is NOTHING he can not do. he could if he wanted to make the devil not even exist at any moment.. someone in another discussion made the argurment that you can onlyhave happiness because there is sadness. joy because there is dispare.... well thats just not true if there is a god he can do anything. he could have made it so there is no such thing as sadness or dispare. and only have happiness and joy...




1 last thing i wanna say is about prayer...it is the most usless thing in the world.... sure is makes you feel better because it make it feel liek you did somthing to help fix a problem but u didnt you just wasted 5 mins of you life...
and here is why. it is beleved that god has a great plan for the universe and everything in it and all the workings of it..
who are YOU to ask GOD to change his untimate plan for thr universe????? everything that happens has a purpose in gods great plan, down to miniscule details and now you come along and wanna fk up the whole thing by asking him to changing it???

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then you must have the queston if god existe, are h e a good god or a bad god. then when you look a t the world and see all bad things and war you worry must this b e a bad god.
.

__________________
"It's not only hockey, it's a big event."- Foppa

"Globalisation has made us more vulnerable."-Anna Lindh

"I don't have respect for the people that made the decisions
to go on with war."-Avril