Originally Posted by mrnumbersman

Something that has been excluded here, or maybe spoken of 9 pages ago, is faith. For one to understand that God exists one must have faith. I know you resident atheists are going to jump all over that because you have no faith. You declare that those of us who do have faith are weak. Or God is some sort of compilation of beliefs, etc. You believe what you want to believe.

Faith, you must understand is not science. It can't be explained by science nor can it be explained away by science. Faith exists outside the realm of science. God exists outside the realm of science. Oh sure you can explain parts of creation through science but not all aspects.

There are alternate views to evolution and the big bang. That is not what this is all about. It is about the very existence of God. Having been through the many trials that I have been through and many others who have had it much worse than me, it has been my faith in God that has brought me through it. Call it a crutch if you want. You do not understand what faith truly is.

Originally Posted by mrnumbersman

Something that has been excluded here, or maybe spoken of 9 pages ago, is faith. For one to understand that God exists one must have faith. I know you resident atheists are going to jump all over that because you have no faith. You declare that those of us who do have faith are weak. Or God is some sort of compilation of beliefs, etc. You believe what you want to believe.

Faith, you must understand is not science. It can't be explained by science nor can it be explained away by science. Faith exists outside the realm of science. God exists outside the realm of science. Oh sure you can explain parts of creation through science but not all aspects.

There are alternate views to evolution and the big bang. That is not what this is all about. It is about the very existence of God. Having been through the many trials that I have been through and many others who have had it much worse than me, it has been my faith in God that has brought me through it. Call it a crutch if you want. You do not understand what faith truly is.

Originally Posted by Future Leader

oh, i have faith alright, i have faith indeedy. i have faith that man is what created man, the logic we were born with (not given) has created the world we live in today. not some daddy figuer saying "be good or burn" though that phrase is what made religion so popular in the old days.



but you see, god didnt bring you through those trials, maybe the thought of god kept you up, but you are what kept you up, god has nothing to do with it.

i like the quote by stalin (read down below)

to resident athiest: only god can except your apology, wait he doesnt exist lol, so yeah i forgive you.

really my theologian friends, cant yall accept that ya might be wrong? many of gods so called "miracles" witch your faioth is based on has been proven scientificly, like the exodous, i saw a show recenlty called "exodous decoded" that pretty much explanied how it all may have happened (look for it on good or you tube).

and mrnumbersman i guess i dont understand you type of faith, because i see no reason to have the faith to believe in god, there has been no proof what so ever that i need, should, or have to believe in god other then "ye shall perish with out the belssings of god blah blah blah" and thats not really convincing seeing how i keep hearing from all the jesus freaks "god loves you he forgives all" and if that be the case thar be no reason to believe in him cause he will forgive and let me through the gates any ways (assuming he exists). your type of faith relies on your preist (or what ever holy man tells you what to believe) to tell you the "nature of god" even tho christians constantly tout "god works in mysterios ways" well how the hell can people tout the nature of god if they dont even know how he works. and another thing about the hypocracy of religios people, why do so many fanatics hate gay people? they say god created every 1 and every thing, well maybe god made gay people? and i see all these rallies with signs "god hates gays" "sodomy is a sin","blah blah blah i have nothing better to do with my time" well ya know what? if god is so god dam omnipotent and so all god dam forgiving not only would he know that gay people would populate the earth he would also forgive them. and hell, maybe they dont need to have forgivness because god might actualy be a big fruit himself. people dont know jack shit about god or what he wants and yet morons still listen to preachers who just use his name for profit, now how am i supose to believe in a god that every tellls me about when all they are doing is blowing steam out of thier asses?

so instead of looking like a jackass and saying that i know what god wants or inacting his will im gonna stick with facts over faith.

Originally Posted by ResidentAtheist

Are you talking to me? well, are you.
The thing with faith is just that, its uncommited devotion to something you can't see, touch, feel, or and most importantly, prove. It requires taking something at face value, judging a book by its cover, believing when all else goes against it.

Originally Posted by ResidentAtheist

And i dont think you can handle the truth mrnumbersman
I don't think your able to look the other way and open up the book, to see that the cover is just that, a cover, which by many rights doesnt give a full picture of the entire book.

Originally Posted by ResidentAtheist

I'm not saying im 100% right my friend. On the spectrum of Strong Atheist and Weak Atheist im more of a moderate atheist, understandable of other peoples faith and beliefs but still ready to defend myself like a fundementalist right zealot against those crazy religious, hooligans.
Your free to your belief my friend, just don't expect me to back down so easily when you try and prove your god with circular reasoning or by saying he doesnt need explanation, that he just is. You offer up faith, i offer up facts and proof.

Originally Posted by Chesty Puller

Trust me this debate for me Is over I think Im starting to question my own faith in the face of all of this adversity and logical discussion. I am beginning to wonder if I am the worlds biggest fool.

Originally Posted by LiveUninhibited

Assuming you don't dispute that definition, I suppose your point could be that there's no point trying to reason with religious people because they believe something without or in spite of evidence. I honestly don't take anything on faith. I believe faith is a naive way of approaching the world. I may have "faith" in a friend because of experience, but that is not the same kind of faith we are discussing. That faith is based upon available evidence. Your faith is based upon nothing but hope and early brainwashing. You could accept anything, no matter how illogical or fantastic, with faith. Doesn't that seem kind of stupid to you?

Oh yes, and also define miracle for me.

Originally Posted by LiveUninhibited

Faith is kind of hard to discuss because of what it is. I believe the relevant definition is:



Assuming you don't dispute that definition, I suppose your point could be that there's no point trying to reason with religious people because they believe something without or in spite of evidence. I honestly don't take anything on faith. I believe faith is a naive way of approaching the world. I may have "faith" in a friend because of experience, but that is not the same kind of faith we are discussing. That faith is based upon available evidence. Your faith is based upon nothing but hope and early brainwashing. You could accept anything, no matter how illogical or fantastic, with faith. Doesn't that seem kind of stupid to you?

Oh yes, and also define miracle for me.