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  #61 (permalink)  
Old 03-11-2008, 06:07 AM
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Originally Posted by Slartibartfas View Post
Of course. But its not said that those early humans were omnivores, its also possible that they were collectors of food that derives from plants. I really know too little about this field, but I think I heard something like that.
Well, i'll try not to pique what isn't your forte. The only problem i have with humans evolving from frugivores to omnivores is that it is a form of adaptation and not evolution. You see (from what i remember from Biology), Darwin's theory is that of evolution and it was Lamarck's theory that said we adapted to or surrounding environment, however, he was later proved wrong. So, maybe we were always omnivores but didn't realize it until after we dropped down from the trees. But then again, that would defeat the fact that, if we were naturally omnivores, we would naturally eat all foods and not just fruits.

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Good question what our common ancestor was, but I think it was rather a frugivore, but dont torture me if thats not correct
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  #62 (permalink)  
Old 03-11-2008, 06:35 AM
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Originally Posted by Kazikli Bey View Post
Well, i'll try not to pique what isn't your forte. The only problem i have with humans evolving from frugivores to omnivores is that it is a form of adaptation and not evolution. You see (from what i remember from Biology), Darwin's theory is that of evolution and it was Lamarck's theory that said we adapted to or surrounding environment, however, he was later proved wrong. So, maybe we were always omnivores but didn't realize it until after we dropped down from the trees. But then again, that would defeat the fact that, if we were naturally omnivores, we would naturally eat all foods and not just fruits.
Is there a difference between evolution and adaptation? Most evolutionary transformations come out of the necessity to adapt to a new environment - like my example with the polar and brown bears.
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Old 03-11-2008, 07:03 AM
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Originally Posted by AzTeK View Post
Is there a difference between evolution and adaptation? Most evolutionary transformations come out of the necessity to adapt to a new environment - like my example with the polar and brown bears.
Well yes, there is, at least a difference between Lamarck's and Darwin's. Lamarck's theory, to use a simple example was that Giraffe's started with short necks and their necks grew over time as they stretched to reach to leaves of the trees. Darwin stated that there were giraffes with both long and short necks and short necked giraffes died out because they couldn't reach the leaves.

Darwin's theory is that the more adapted will survive better. The best known evidence is that of moths. During the industrial revolution, it was seen that white moths survived better in the wild whilst black moths survived better in the cities. Now, neither of them were adaptations, each had the genes to become either black or white but predators were able to pick off whites moths easier in the cities and black moths easier in the wild, therefore the other would flourish much better.
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  #64 (permalink)  
Old 03-11-2008, 09:43 AM
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Originally Posted by Kazikli Bey View Post
Well yes, there is, at least a difference between Lamarck's and Darwin's. Lamarck's theory, to use a simple example was that Giraffe's started with short necks and their necks grew over time as they stretched to reach to leaves of the trees. Darwin stated that there were giraffes with both long and short necks and short necked giraffes died out because they couldn't reach the leaves.
Hmm, didn't know that. I always thought Giraffe's long necks where a direct effect of evolution - due to a changed environment where food grew scarcer, they were "forced" to reach higher places to get their food and thus somehow, over hundreds of generations, the necks elongated.
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Old 03-11-2008, 10:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Kazikli Bey View Post
Well yes, there is, at least a difference between Lamarck's and Darwin's. Lamarck's theory, to use a simple example was that Giraffe's started with short necks and their necks grew over time as they stretched to reach to leaves of the trees. Darwin stated that there were giraffes with both long and short necks and short necked giraffes died out because they couldn't reach the leaves.

Darwin's theory is that the more adapted will survive better. The best known evidence is that of moths. During the industrial revolution, it was seen that white moths survived better in the wild whilst black moths survived better in the cities. Now, neither of them were adaptations, each had the genes to become either black or white but predators were able to pick off whites moths easier in the cities and black moths easier in the wild, therefore the other would flourish much better.
Why shouldn't omnivorism (if that's the right word) be a product of Darwinian evolution? Many creatures can eat things other than their normal diet, only that they digest these other things less well, get mildly ill or whatever. If there's a genetic mutation that makes some in the species better adapted for the wider diet, and environmental conditions that make it harder to get the normal diet, then the onmivores will win out by natural selection, no?
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  #66 (permalink)  
Old 03-11-2008, 01:13 PM
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It's easy being able to believe in both evolution (a very well developed and strong theory) and religion. But when reading the Bible, it makes it impossible when one takes the entire damn thing word for word. A lot of that book is metaphorical, and so why not take it that way and simply learn from it?
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  #67 (permalink)  
Old 03-11-2008, 01:28 PM
The Lying Dutchman The Lying Dutchman is offline
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Originally Posted by Demarcoa View Post
It's easy being able to believe in both evolution (a very well developed and strong theory) and religion. But when reading the Bible, it makes it impossible when one takes the entire damn thing word for word. A lot of that book is metaphorical, and so why not take it that way and simply learn from it?
thats the problem: some can some cant, nobody is in a position to judge either side
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  #68 (permalink)  
Old 03-11-2008, 01:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Demarcoa View Post
It's easy being able to believe in both evolution (a very well developed and strong theory) and religion. But when reading the Bible, it makes it impossible when one takes the entire damn thing word for word. A lot of that book is metaphorical, and so why not take it that way and simply learn from it?
I think that is a bit of a stretch to say that the Bible was intended to be metaphorical. One exact quote from the James King version of the bible is as follows...

"Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death."

This is not a metaphor, cannot be taken out of context and is probably not a mistranslation (every language I would imagine has a word for death). You can look at it as being metaphorical and that would probably be in your best interest however it was most certainly not meant to be taken that way.
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  #69 (permalink)  
Old 03-11-2008, 01:40 PM
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Evolution is proven true, there is no disputing that fact. But there's something about it, I have a difficult time swallowing that we all descended from pigeon excrement, and are all by-products of an explosion. I love myself a little too much to condition myself to believe that I am an accident. I clearly don't buy into the God of the bible, I would rather place my trust in a middle ground of some sort.
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  #70 (permalink)  
Old 03-11-2008, 01:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Charlie_Harper View Post
Evolution is proven true, there is no disputing that fact. But there's something about it, I have a difficult time swallowing that we all descended from pigeon excrement, and are all by-products of an explosion. I love myself a little too much to condition myself to believe that I am an accident. I clearly don't buy into the God of the bible, I would rather place my trust in a middle ground of some sort.
Well I for one am proud of the idea that I am the result of the greatest explosion ever to take place in the history of the universe, assuming the Big Bang Theory to be true. Think of it this way, if you are an accident then that means there is no cosmic being that created you for the purpose of serving their needs.
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