John Murphy

Okay once again please forgive me for being away from this site for so long. It seems you guys are never off here.
However some of the people on this thread are calling religious people mad. Once again I must point out that most of the greatest minds on earth believed in God or some sort of cosmic deity. If you look back over time and read up on the great scientist of earth most believed in God or some sort of deity.
Of course middle earth does not exist it was fiction created by J.R.R. Tolkein. I know what some of you is thinking well the bible is possibly fiction to. Well the bible is different in that places and events in the bible did actually take place or are known. There is also places in the bible that have been discovered in recent times that were not recorded in any other books from the past.
Please do not mock my faith because you have none. That is your problem not mine.
Also in some of the posts I read people say well religion is the cause of wars. This is man causing wars and using religion as a blanket to hide behind.

Locke9-05

Exactly, John Murphy.

To blame an ideal--an abstract concept for a war (something that must be initiated by the acts of man) is illogical and unreasonable. That's the point I've been trying to make, but I suppose I've been going about it in a bit of a circuitous manner. Men start wars, whether or whether not they claim the wars to be in pursuit of an ideal. The Crusades defied the principles of Christianity anyway, as have many of the radical acts of violence, terror and war initiated in the pursuit of such ideals. To say that religion was necessary for the Crusades to occur in history is true--as one of the many contributing factors, but you still can't blame religion for starting the war. That's mindless judgment.


@ Bronze Medal
As for Stalin and the communist genocides, you and I will probably just agree to disagree about atheism's role as a contributing factor--when considering the logic as applied to to the Crusades. That's fine. But still by no means can you blame religion for starting a war, just like you can't blame atheism for starting a war. That would be illogical beyond all reason.

__________________
"Ask not what your country can do for you; ask what you can do for your country."
-John F. Kennedy

"Education begins the gentleman, but reading, good company and reflection must finish him."
-John Locke

"What worries you, masters you."
-John Locke
___________________

The Lying Dutchman

offcourse war is a product of man, but man can be controled by religion and see war as a tool for a 'greater' cause.
you cant blame religion just like you cant blame communism. they are ways of looking at the world that on itself dont have any intentions.

but we cant look away from the things that these ways of looking at the world can do to man. we now see people who believe enough in god to blow themselves up for a greater good. in these scenario's the nature of 'man' is not so much the cause of violence but his extreme vision of reality and justice, made possible by religion.

Locke9-05

Man can't be "controlled" by religion, that's absurd. One's individual constitution and depth/strength of their beliefs determines how far they are willing to go for them, not the beliefs themselves... Individuals could convince themselves to die or kill for virtually any set of beliefs or ideals, but the ideals themselves aren't responsible for those strong feelings.

__________________
"Ask not what your country can do for you; ask what you can do for your country."
-John F. Kennedy

"Education begins the gentleman, but reading, good company and reflection must finish him."
-John Locke

"What worries you, masters you."
-John Locke
___________________

The Lying Dutchman

no ideals dont 'talk' themselves and therefore cant force man to do anything. but man is not just nature, he acts in a certain way because he believes certain things. what he believes is decisive for how he acts.

im not blaming beliefs for that is impossible. but beliefs are a drive for action and therefore you shouldnt separate them from man, they form a part of man

Locke9-05

Yes, but what man believes does not equate the ideals or principles themselves. Someone may believe that it is "right" to kill or wage war for an ideal when the ideal might say the opposite--hence the Crusades and Islamic radicalism. The Crusades and Islamic radicalism are perfect examples of individuals' beliefs skewing the actual ideals themselves based on their individual hatred and strong feelings/beliefs (which can't be blamed on the beliefs themselves). I'm glad you're not blaming religion, because religion is not at fault for murderers or wars. Religion may be a factor in some of the wars waged, just like the thousands of other factors, but it is certainly not the "cause" of them as some in this topic have implied.

__________________
"Ask not what your country can do for you; ask what you can do for your country."
-John F. Kennedy

"Education begins the gentleman, but reading, good company and reflection must finish him."
-John Locke

"What worries you, masters you."
-John Locke
___________________

The Lying Dutchman

yes, but you cannot see 'the beliefs' on itself, you interpret them and deduce from them wat action should be seen as justified in a certain context. beliefs dont exist on themselves, they are concepts in our heads and mean what each of us make of them.

but everyone will have its own interpretation and therefore interpretations can be conflicting and lead to conflicts. it is not so much the belief that creates conflicts, but a fanaticism that doesnt accept anything in this world to be different from our beliefs.

Locke9-05

Ideals exist by themselves, though. Beliefs are our individual beliefs. Religions--Christianity, Islam, etc. can be considered ideals and have confines and principles. Christianity professes that it's wrong to kill as does Islam--so one can deduce that the Crusades and Islamic radicalism defies those very ideals based on the skewed beliefs of the individuals that don't even match the principles of said religious faith. Beliefs are exclusive to the individual, but ideals exist by themselves, and neither can cause us to kill. Our constitution and the strength of our beliefs can influence us to kill, but ideals cannot, as once an ideal is written, it is written in stone--so to speak--as that specific ideal remains unchanged. One can "interpret" the ideal, but one's interpretation of an ideal that exists already equates that individual's thoughts and actions, not the ideal itself. It can be seen in Christianity/Islam and the Crusades/Radical Islam terrorists. The ideals and principles are clear and although the individuals choose/chose to falsely and individually "interpret" them, the ideals/religion still remained the same and could not be held responsible for the thoughts/actions of those individuals that skewed them. Christians are not to kill--especially for their faith, and Islam is the same... Most of them don't. So the individuals who did were responsible by themselves for violating ideals that can at best be associated as loose "factors" among so very many of the conflicts (the Crusades and Islamic radicalism).

__________________
"Ask not what your country can do for you; ask what you can do for your country."
-John F. Kennedy

"Education begins the gentleman, but reading, good company and reflection must finish him."
-John Locke

"What worries you, masters you."
-John Locke
___________________

ResidentAtheist

The civilizations on this planet are all based off ideals, its what defines them. The Romans and Greeks were based on represenatives governments, and than religious ideology. The Islamic nations of the middle east are grounded on the ideals of Islam, there entire governmental system is based on Islam. After the Magna Carte England was based of fair and balanced human rights, they kicked the church out of politics. What you do is based on your ideal. What you believe defines what you do in your life. if you believe wholeheartedly in your god and that in the afterlife you will be blessed with eternal life than that can force you to do remarkable good things in this world...
However,
Say you believe in this god, but you also believe all must believe regardless and that your a chosen race. If you go out and kill millions of people based of these beliefs than your religion/ideals, are a direct cause of those murders. Your ideals caused these murders because your ideals are who you are.
Its entirely possible that someone can go out there, believing that Atheist people are a better people and all others should die because there ignorant and arrogant people, hiding behind there faith. But Stalin and Mao Zedong were politicians who didnt simply murder the religious because of there atheism. They murdered anyone who stood in there way because they wanted power, they wanted to be at the top. They wanted man to be revered, not a religion. They never went around and said specifically that they were killing in the name of Atheism, they killed because they wanted power. Hitler killed because he believed to be part of hte master race and his religion, his christian religion, made him believe Jews stole everything from him.
Of course men start wars, but its those ideals that cause the man to start the war. everything causes something, cause and effect. simple.

John Murphy
SOme of the greatest scientist believed in a god or diety?
Paul Dirac, predicted Antimatter and won the Nobel Prize in Physics
Sigmund Freud, No Explanation needed
Alan Turing, Known as 'Father of Modern Computing'
Ron Reagan jr. and Lance Armstrong, Had to mention these two simply because ones the son of a president and the other is a personal hero of mine.
Bertrand Russell, British Philosopher and Mathematician.
Stephen Hawking, Not definite proof, because i have two qoutes that sort of say the opposite, but no doubt he doesnt believe in your god.
Carl Sagan - Was an american astronomer deeply concerned wiht nuclear disarmanment (sp?). he believed in the Fermi Paradox that said when civilizations generally reached a lever of technological advancement they destroyed themselves. Being an Atheist, he wanted to fight for the survival of the one an only life he and everyone else has. He was a remarkable man, one of the smartest i believe. Regardless of your beliefs, please research this man. and watch Cosmos.
Sean Carroll, Theoritical Cosmologist
Steven Weinberg, won Nobel Prize in Physics in 1979
Authors, Did you know Mark Twain and Kurt Vonnegut are Atheists. These are authors whose books you read in school.

I could list more but i wanted to get only the ones you should recognize of the first look, hopefully. Plus, i didnt want to simply make a giant list.
I want you to understand theres plenty of people on the other side of the spectrum who dont believe in your god and those that do, including Albert Einstein, dont believe in the Christian/Catholic god but a greater force at work.
Murphy, please explain some of these events that are true that are mentioned in the bible but not other books? Even more, explain how something found true is only in one book that as far as i'm concerned, is a fairy tale on world history? The bible is a record on that time period, of course theres going to be events that actually took place, its just that its highly exagerated.
Don't mock my belief Murphy. its not my problem that i dont believe, its my choice and i don't see it as my flaw, its who i am and i don't appreaciate you saying its a problem. I don't mock your faith, i mock that which you have faith in. Have your belief, it doesnt bother me. I just don't agree with the actual belief but i believe you should have every right to believe. Don't try and believe i have a problem because i don't believe, that i should ever need anyones help for salvation. I made my choice.

__________________
"For every man there is a purpose he sets up in his life, let yours be the doing of all good deeds." - Qur'an
Give every man your ear, but few thy voice. Take each man's censure, but reserve thy judgment.[Hamlet] -Shakespeare, William
Where there is doubt, there is freedom -Latin Proverb

The Lying Dutchman

the problem is no-one can proof wrong radical islamists. they base themself on the quran just as moderate muslims do, but have their own interpretation. I cannot prove wrong your interpretation of the bible, but your interpretation of the bible is also not an external fact. Every tekst has an endless amount of interpretations, the many different bible-interpretations that have existed throughout centuries have learned us that much (i think the term is hermeneutica). Which one of these interpretations is dominant is not so much a result of the content itself but social processes.