presluc

Do not misunderstand me I beleive in God.
However just because a person does not beleive in God doesn't say they don't want peace.
How a person beleives is their own business if they can help obtain peace who cares if they pray or not.
I have my own thoughts on my beleif in God, and I think it should be private.
Read your scipture did not Jesus warn us about the people of the temple who go in flowing robes and,pray out loud saying I'm glad I am who I am and not like other lower class people who don't come to the temple everyday?

Locke9-05

It's "unkind" of me to state facts when someone infers that I'm not thinking "logically" when logic is a term that can't be ultimately defined any one way? Oh, I'm so terribly sorry for saying something that you took offense to, there's not much I can do about that. Logic is not an absolute term, there is no one definition of the term "logic," the only point I was making is that Bronze Medal's terms of what equates "logic" is not an absolute reference point as Bronze Medal does not equal the entire human populace--he's one person. For him--or for you--to tell me my ideas and beliefs are "illogical" as a generality is a very ignorant argument, because you don't get to define logic in ultimate terms. That's the argument I was making, I'm terribly sorry you misinterpreted it, took offense to it, and then completely misrepresented it back here in this debate. Wonderful...
Really? That's quite a revelation. Yes you're blatantly misrepresenting my argument with a well-done straw man argument. Did I ever say "minorities are always wrong?" No, the argument was that you as individuals cannot define what equates "logic" because you as individuals do not equal the entire population and everyone is different. You claim to be open-minded, but you're criticizing people for believing things that are different from your beliefs--as if everyone should just have carbon copy beliefs. Open-mindedness comes from acceptance, not judgment. I have yet to see that from you.
Didn't I already say that your misrepresentation of my argument is sickening and low class? Oh I didn't? Well there you have it. That's what it is--sickening and low class. If you don't understand the argument, maybe you should pose your rebuttal in a way that asks for verification or poses hypothetical responses to what you perceive to be my argument instead of spouting off absolute straw man statements.
Are you associating slavery with religion? Slavery pre-dates religion and has existed in society long before religion. In many societies, slavery was a method of paying off debts, and it was a system completely separate. I sincerely hope you weren't associating slavery as a practice with religion, because that's completely absurd and you have absolutely no backing for it.
Exactly... Leviticus says it. Not God. A man who wrote the text that later became part of religious history... It's just history. Who knows what his intentions were when writing it, he was a man. To the individuals/individual who wrote Leviticus, it was probably similar to the political rants you see on the web today. They wrote it from their minds. It's religious history, no different from other historic figures writing what's on their mind. But of course it seems you would take that and judge an entire religion for it. Well done.
Then don't blindly follow anything in life. You don't have to "blindly" follow anything in life... Do what you will, but that kind of individualistic attitude often results in consequences. You live in this country, to reap the benefits of it, you must follow the laws. That doesn't mean you have to "blindly" follow the laws. You refuse to believe religion. Good for you. That doesn't mean others have to blindly accept your way of thinking--which seems to be what you'd have them do. You'd have those who truly have thought about it and believe in a god or gods blindly deny what they believe just to turn and believe what you believe. That's the only thing this continued judgment and criticism of religion indicates.
That's a really condescending, yet ironically a totally ignorant remark. You claim I'm "blindly" accepting my faith, but hell, anyone could turn around and say the same thing about your lifestyle. In fact, someone could take it a step further with you--based on all this religious intolerance you've been spouting--and note how you seem to want everyone around you to "blindly" deny their beliefs (that they've accepted and thought out) just to follow the lifestyle you do. That's not how the world works, and if you think it should, you're probably going to live an unhappy and conflicted life with all that judgment and criticism you seem to pile on others.
The real question isn't "how can you believe me" it's why the hell should I give a rat's ass if you believe me or not? I question all kinds of things, I don't blindly follow anything, you "believing" me when I say that is not one of deciding factors on whether it's true or not--it is... I mean, who exactly do you think you are, it's as if you're acting like you're the determining factor in mine and many others' beliefs--as if unless they believe what you believe, then they're "blindly" following something. How utterly hypocritical and absurd.
I don't know, what would Jesus do? That question is foolish and hypocritical by the standards of discussion today. Why? Primarily because the only way to know what Jesus would do in all these stupid insignificant little situations would be to ask him. Since we can't zap ourselves back some 2008 or so years ago in time, that might be a tad bit difficult. As for your misrepresenting my argument for the umpteenth time, I went over it umpteen times, so I hope it's been clarified.

__________________
"Ask not what your country can do for you; ask what you can do for your country."
-John F. Kennedy

"Education begins the gentleman, but reading, good company and reflection must finish him."
-John Locke

"What worries you, masters you."
-John Locke
___________________

ResidentAtheist

I have a new found...well, its not respect, but intrigue for you Locke. You truly are an amazing, yet confusing person.

Thats the same thing i was trying to tell you Locke. That Logic can be solely defined by the will of the majority, as you so clearly made it sound.
You say i misrepresented what you tried to say, than i say you misrepresented what i said. Doesnt it seem that both of us could be wrong. that our opinions our just that, opinions. and Logic is based solely on our ideals and opinions. That point your were trying to make is the same i was trying to make. but because of your feelings towards me, and yes, my feelings toward you, neither of us could clearly see that. could we?

We all claim to be open minded don't we? No matter what anyone else says we believe deep down in are hearts that we are open minded. I specifically said people are free to believe what they want no matter what i think. I don't believe people should be carbon copies of me, i value individualism. Its what made me who i am. I would not become who i am based of individualism and arrogance to want everyone to be like me. Thats sickening.
I accept other people, i hate no one until they hurt those i care for. I never said i hate the religious, except the fundementalists. I judge what those fundementalists do, when they go against there teachings. Being judgmental does not negate open mindness. When you start believing your better than everyone else, than your no longer open minded. I don't believe im better than anyone, i've made mistakes and i dont pretend not to.

Man believed long ago, and many still do, that the bible is the word of God. would that not make Leviticus the word of god?
I said i dont want people to give up there belief because i simply don't believe it. I've never said that. i know there have been plenty of religious people who are good. I value individualistic attitudes, i wouldnt want everyone like me.
Would i judge an entire religion because of leviticus. Only when that religion continues to allow leviticus to contradict its many many messages.
You seem to take my points and exagerate than by large amounts. How did you go from 'i dont blindly follow anything' to i don't follow any laws. How did you get from this to that. Now thats confusing.

Sorry, can we keep these conversations a little bit shorter. I have other stuff to do. but i do enjoy these. Maybe i should just go to bed earlier.

__________________
"For every man there is a purpose he sets up in his life, let yours be the doing of all good deeds." - Qur'an
Give every man your ear, but few thy voice. Take each man's censure, but reserve thy judgment.[Hamlet] -Shakespeare, William
Where there is doubt, there is freedom -Latin Proverb

Vandal

The world is no more dangerous then it was before they invented television, its just now your able to see it beyond the comfort of your own home.

If praying had any significant influence on the outcome of events then poor countries would be filled with wealthy people because they spend more time praying then wealthy people who live in wealth country.

John Murphy

I am not saying people who have no faith don't want peace I never even implied it. I do believe however God would be pleased if people of all faiths prayed together looking for peace. If you don't believe in God you would'nt have to pray. I think Jesus was talking about people who pray just to be sen praying, thinking they are more holy and devout than others.

John Murphy

[quote=Vandal;153585]The world is no more dangerous then it was before they invented television, its just now your able to see it beyond the comfort of your own home.

We have enough nuclear weapons that can blow up the world 1000 times over, you only need to do it once. Also diseases are developing becoming more and more immune to our medicines. We can now more readily spread diseases because of our modern transport and so on. Bombs can blow up cities at a press of abutton. Do you not see how our world is more dangerous.

If praying had any significant influence on the outcome of events then poor countries would be filled with wealthy people because they spend more time praying then wealthy people who live in wealth country.

You seem to think with wealth comes happiness. I grew up in a poor family, yet some of my happiest memories are of my childhood growing up with my brothers and sisters. My family are religious and we have had great comfort from God. Now take a look at some of the rich and famous people we see on T.V., some of them do not remind me on people who are happy in their lives. Wealth does not equal happiness, and poverty does not equal misery.

Locke9-05

Logic cannot be defined in any "objective" way. That's what I was telling you. You just misunderstood. Individuals, groups, unless everyone agrees--because of how abstract of a term it is--"logic" is completely subjective. No "individual" is right in their defining it and no group is correct either, no matter whether they're the majority or not. So yes, you were misrepresenting my argument, but it seems it was simply due to a lack of understanding my argument.

Then why pray tell do you claim to despise religion? Why do you "blame" religion for "all the bad in the world?"

Ironically, in this quote, it seems you didn't even know what you were talking about. The Bible says no such thing. Your statement was an ignorant one--lacking in information, designed as a personal affront and it had no place in this discussion. The commandments from God as stated in the Bible--the only real laws of God say to honor your father and your mother and they say not to kill. You might want to become a bit more informed before spouting such dishonest things about topics which you are apparently unfamiliar with.

Oh and here's my favorite
There we have it. It seemed as if the truth of your views on individuality came out in that post: "I despise it [religion]." You accept individuality and individual beliefs huh? Doesn't seem like it. Seems like you "despise it"--at least certain belief systems.

Why in God's name do you continue make such extremely judgmental comments about the beliefs of people who haven't done you any wrong?

Yet you "despise" religion. How does that work? You value individualism, but you despise and judge such a broad category of individual beliefs... That makes absolutely no sense. Leviticus is not the word of God, I already explained this to you. Leviticus is the word of men speaking their thoughts and observations about that time period. The only true believed word of God in terms of law and what man should do and not do comes in the Old Testament in the form of the ten commandments which are perfectly reasonable, moral, and logical by today's standards even.
How does Christianity "allow Leviticus to contradict its many messages?" Men speaking their political and spiritual beliefs as rhetoric in the form of historical records, used as reference by the church and nothing more? You don't seem to know nearly enough about Christianity to be making such generalizations about how teachings are used and how scriptures are valued in different ways--in teaching us what to do and what not to do.
I didn't exaggerate anything. You said:
You said you don't believe your purpose is to blindly follow anything including your parents or your country. I didn't say "you don't follow laws" what I pointed out was that you're free to question your parents and the laws of this country, but because you reap the benefits of this nation--if you expect to be able to live here--you have to follow the laws. Following something doesn't automatically equate blind obedience. That was the point I was making.
It's up to you how involved you are. I have an obligation to this forum so I try to maintain a fairly active status. You don't have to reply to every post I make.

__________________
"Ask not what your country can do for you; ask what you can do for your country."
-John F. Kennedy

"Education begins the gentleman, but reading, good company and reflection must finish him."
-John Locke

"What worries you, masters you."
-John Locke
___________________

presluc

And that is my point no person of God needs to be seen praying they can if they wish but they don't have to be.
It is my beleif that prayer is between man and God,a personal thing.
The only people that don't want peace in this world are either mentally unstable or making money off of war, or search for power in the wrong place.

Charlie_Harper

It is of my opinion that Jesus was dead against public prayer. You are correct, I would think it be a personal thing. That's why I think the church is totally corrupt; politics play too big a role in the church nowadays. If someone were to return claiming he was Jesus and performing miracles to "deceive even the elect", the people in power would almost certainly have him killed again. If I were Jesus, I wouldn't even give two thoughts of returning to this human zoo.

__________________
Enemies Among Us- My book!

presluc

Well, I don't know if it's politics playing a big role in the church, or if it's the church playing a big role in politics,
One thing for sure these two need to be seperated.