Is there really such thing as free will? - Political Forum

Pawn · #1 (**permalink**) 02-20-2008, 03:06 AM

according to the bible, god is all powerful and can do any thing he wants, meaning he knows every thing, past present future, which means does god know about every thing that will happen before hand?

which leads to the question: do we really have free will if god knows our choices? because gods knows "if i do this then people will react to it in this way" meaning he knows what he has to do. but if he knows that his actions will have the effects they have now (war, famine, sin, carrot top) why does he do the actions that result in these out comes?

i know that was ahard to explain so let me try to give y'all an example:

lets say that there is a river (god put the river there, and he knows the outcome) and 2 tribes need that river to feed thier tribe, they cant share the river because there isnt enough fish. so the choices are: fight over the river, or starve.

now dont say that scenario has never happened, if you want u can substatute fish with gold, or something of value. its true the tribes have a FREE choice, war or starve, but really what kind of an option is that? if god wants us to be happy and not fight why put things he knows we will eventually need in the hands of rivals?

maybe im wrong, and the tribes would fight no matter how god did things, thats why i ask the question.

rsather139 · #2 (**permalink**) 02-21-2008, 04:26 AM

Meh. Sorry but I still believe that the choices we make as people are done of our own free will. Whether our choices matter or not is another question.

Nash · #3 (**permalink**) 02-21-2008, 03:06 PM

you have the feedom to believe in God or you can reject the idea of God.Even though he created you,you have the freedom to reject him.

Izzibeth · #4 (**permalink**) 02-21-2008, 03:52 PM

I think you're missing the point. If God already knows exactly what is going to happen then you have no free will.. your actions are already predetermined and before you were even made God knew that you would or would not believe in it. There can not be an omnipresent, omnipotent being AND free will for humans. It is an impossibility. Even "God works in mysterious ways" can't explain away this question which has yet to be answered in any logical way (from what I have personally seen anyway).

Caltex · #5 (**permalink**) 02-21-2008, 04:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nash

you have the feedom to believe in God or you can reject the idea of God.Even though he created you,you have the freedom to reject him.

First, before making an absolute claim like this you must first prove that gods exist. Then you must prove that there is only one of them. Then you must prove that he created life. Then prove that he isn't just making you think you have free will, even though you don't.

Once all that is done, your statement won't be a completely baseless.

Back to the thread subject: It really depends on what you define free will as. If you mean that we have absolute power to determine our actions, then well no. We are slaves to our bodily needs, and chemical drives (breathing air seems like a waste of time to me, I'd rather not do it). If you mean that overall we have a choice over our beliefs, then yes.

USViking · #6 (**permalink**) 02-21-2008, 05:57 PM

Here is a link to an earlier thread on the same subject:

Determinism

May we merge them?

rsather139 · #7 (**permalink**) 02-21-2008, 06:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bronze Medal

What does 'free-will' even mean?

The ability for me to make my own decisions. If I am faced with a choice it is my own will that makes the choice, not an outside force or conditioning.

USViking · #8 (**permalink**) 02-21-2008, 09:11 PM

I will say up front that determinism is abhorrent to me
because it seems disproof of human initiative and
human responsibility.

I do not take seriously theological pleas for the retention
of free will under the aegis of an omnipotent God.

The scientific angle does interest me.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bronze Medal

2. Determinism. The laws of physics are absolute. All causes have one effect and one effect only. The future has only one possible outcome because there is no such thing as randomness. Our bodies are made of atoms and are wholey subject to the laws of physics. So we have no more choice than a rock has a choice to fall in a parabola.

No Free Will.

Neither Classical Mechanics or General Reativity
are hospitable ground for determinism according
to the best philosophical source that I know of
on the internet, the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy:

Causal Determinism (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy)

(from link, emphasis added):

Quote:

Despite the common belief that Classical Mechanics (the theory that inspired Laplace in his articulation of determinism) is perfectly deterministic, in fact the theory is rife with possibilities for determinism to break down...

Defining an appropriate form of determinism for the context of General Relativity is extremely difficult, due to both foundational interpretive issues and the plethora of weirdly-shaped space-time models allowed by the theory's field equations. The simplest way of treating the issue of determinism in GR would be to state flatly: determinism fails, frequently, and in some of the most interesting models...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bronze Medal

3. Quantum. Quantum theory suggest (they haven't really proven anything yet) that there is a such thing as randomness on the sub-atomic level. That to a small degree there are no cause and effect absolutes. There are two ways to debunk that this signifies free will.

Here is the SEP on QM:

Quote:

As indicated above, QM is widely thought to be a strongly non-deterministic theory. Popular belief (even among most physicists) holds that phenomena such as radioactive decay, photon emission and absorption, and many others are such that only a probabilistic description of them can be given. The theory does not say what happens in a given case, but only says what the probabilities of various results are...

...So goes the story; but like much popular wisdom, it is partly mistaken and/or misleading. Ironically, quantum mechanics is one of the best prospects for a genuinely deterministic theory in modern times! Even more than in the case of GTR and the hole argument, everything hinges on what interpretational and philosophical decisions one adopts.

I am a bit repelled by SEP's offhand dismissal of the views
of most practicing physicists, and by the unbalanced preference
it shows for deterministic QM interpretations such as the Bohmian
when QM most theories are in fact INdeterministic:

(scroll to table near end of article)
Interpretation of quantum mechanics - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bronze Medal

A. Randomness does not constitute as 'free will' anyway, If all your choices were 100% based on flipping a coin, what 'choice' do you have?

No Free Will

I do not follow here. Of course all probablilities add up
to 100%. The fact that there are ANY probablilties is
what mitigates against determinism.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bronze Medal

B. Randomness dissipates at the atomic level and above. Even if there is randomness at that level, it doesn't change anything at the level we exist on. The laws of physics (and Determinism) is completely uneffected by any randomness that may exist on the quantum level.

No Free Will

I am not sure this is true. In the course of one human life
the mind is usually conscious for well over 500k hours.

That is 500 trillion hours per one billion people.
A number that huge will I think include a significant
set of random events, even if randomness is present
only at subatomic frequency.

Giving due weight to all the people who have ever
been alive for ca. 150k years and I think randomness
may be assumed to have intruded on the lives of all.

Finally, the scientific knowledge of consciousness may
be fairly described as not even rudimentary. Even if the
whole shebang of physics is proven to be deterministic,
that would not necessarily say anything about the status
of determinism vis a vis the human mind. That status might
have to be sorted out independently and autonomously,
and we are not now even on square one.

Pawn · #9 (**permalink**) 02-21-2008, 11:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rsather139

The ability for me to make my own decisions. If I am faced with a choice it is my own will that makes the choice, not an outside force or conditioning.

but its the outside force that brought it to you, every choice is brought to you by out side forces, if you were in a bubble of solitude then you would have no choices except for the choice "go out side or stay in"

rsather139 · #10 (**permalink**) 02-21-2008, 11:11 PM

My point is the outside force does not make the decision for you. Whether it influences your decision or not is irrelevant, the person still can choose. Even if you put a gun to my head, I can choose to do as you say, or I can choose to not and probably get shot. But the gun does not make the choice.