Is there really such thing as free will? - Page 3 - Political Forum

Locke9-05 · #21 (**permalink**) 02-22-2008, 01:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bronze Medal

I'm not going to claim to understand how the concept of 'infinite' works, but as far as I understand if someone has an infinite amount of power, they have no choice where that power goes, it should be automatic, if it is place that exists, his power is there.

But that brings up allot of philosophical issues with infinite. Is infinite minus 1 still infinite? It's missing one!

Okay, I see what you mean now. But if God is omniscient, it's quite possible that in knowing all, he knows some work around to that problem...

I don't know. Like you said, it's hard to say.

It's been enjoyable discussing with you. It's getting late here, though. I'm off to bed for now.

Nash · #22 (**permalink**) 02-22-2008, 07:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Izzibeth

I think you're missing the point. If God already knows exactly what is going to happen then you have no free will.. your actions are already predetermined and before you were even made God knew that you would or would not believe in it. There can not be an omnipresent, omnipotent being AND free will for humans. It is an impossibility. Even "God works in mysterious ways" can't explain away this question which has yet to be answered in any logical way (from what I have personally seen anyway).

if our lif is predetermined then yes we still have free will , because if God laid out two paths for the human being one path leading to good and eventually to heaven, the other path leading to bad and straight to hell, Now God knows what path we are going to choose we are going to choose either one. The path that we choose it is laid out for us, if we want to be a rapist or child molester then that path is laid out for us and all the things that go along with that life style is there for you likewise if you want to be good person that path is laid out for you so ther are many different paths in good and in bad, the free will is that you get to choose the life or the path that you want. Sort of like going to mc donolds the choices are ther for you but only you can pick what you want, will this make me fat?, will i die from eating to much of number 3?, still we make a choice and the options are laid out for us allready.Same when it comes to us ,God has laid out the choices and you are free to choose

Quote:

Originally Posted by Caltex

First, before making an absolute claim like this you must first prove that gods exist. Then you must prove that there is only one of them. Then you must prove that he created life. Then prove that he isn't just making you think you have free will, even though you don't.

Once all that is done, your statement won't be a completely baseless.

Well as a student of science i gravitate more to the belief of a creating force so yes i have faith and believe in God. What you are asking for I can ask you to dis prove and this is another debate that can go on and on

Quote:

Back to the thread subject: It really depends on what you define free will as. If you mean that we have absolute power to determine our actions, then well no. We are slaves to our bodily needs, and chemical drives (breathing air seems like a waste of time to me, I'd rather not do it). If you mean that overall we have a choice over our beliefs, then yes.

You do have absolute power to determine your actions, no one is forcing you to type on your computer are they? and if you really dont want to be a slave to your body and breathing bothers you so much then simply get a gun point it your brain and pull the trigger problem solved and you get to find out if there really is a God

atheistwoody · #23 (**permalink**) 02-22-2008, 08:56 AM

According the christians (infact almost all religions), their God is all knowing and all powerful with the ability to do anything. This is omniscience and omnipetance.

So God knows every single thing that has ever happened, is happening now, and will happen in the future.

It also has the ability to do anything you could possibly think of in as little time as it desires (why it took 7 days to build the universe then ill never know)

Soooooooo

God knows every decision that is going to be made, he also has the ability to change that decision.

However this creates a problem. If God can foresee everything it is ever going to do then it also has no free will, but also it has the power to do anything and thus it does have free will.

You can not be both omniscient and omnipetant. So which one is it?

God either knows everything that is going to happen but has no control over anything and thus didnt create the universe.

or

God can do anything but has no idea if its the right decision or how its going to end. In which case he could never create a stable universe that will last forever.

Ohhhh dear, did I just disprove God??

Izzibeth · #24 (**permalink**) 02-22-2008, 12:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nash

if our lif is predetermined then yes we still have free will , because if God laid out two paths for the human being one path leading to good and eventually to heaven, the other path leading to bad and straight to hell, Now God knows what path we are going to choose we are going to choose either one. The path that we choose it is laid out for us, if we want to be a rapist or child molester then that path is laid out for us and all the things that go along with that life style is there for you likewise if you want to be good person that path is laid out for you so ther are many different paths in good and in bad, the free will is that you get to choose the life or the path that you want. Sort of like going to mc donolds the choices are ther for you but only you can pick what you want, will this make me fat?, will i die from eating to much of number 3?, still we make a choice and the options are laid out for us allready.Same when it comes to us ,God has laid out the choices and you are free to choose

Okay.... I'm going to try this again.

If God is omnipresent and omnipotent... then everything you have ever done and will ever do is predetermined. You never make your own decision because it has already been made well before you were born. If you choose the path of "evil"... you were GOING to 'choose' the path of evil thousands of years before you ever existed. If you choose the path of "good"... you were GOING to 'choose' the path of good before you were a twinkle in anyone's eye. Your choices are PREDETERMINED and therefore out of your control (i.e. beyond any realm of "free will").

If God knows what you are going to do before you do it and has everything planned out then there is NO SUCH THING as free will. Your life is predetermined, your 'choices' are predetermined.. and you have no control over any of it. In essence, there can NOT be an omnipotent & omnipresent God AND a concept of free will at the same time. It is impossible.

USViking · #25 (**permalink**) 02-22-2008, 01:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bronze Medal

I want to attempt to stray away from the determinism agrument on this thread, we are supposed to be debating free-will.

I will say this though, I give much more creedance to philosophy and epistemology in the field of detemrinism versus indeterminism than I do to science. The only way science could disprove or prove determinism is if someone was omniscient. I don't expect that to happen anytime soon, so philosophical deduction and reasoning will have to suffice.

I think you are being too generous to philosophy
and not generous enough to science.

Philosophy has been grappling with the problem
of Free Will for over 2000 years and is no closer
to a solution now than it ever was. In fact, I am
not sure it is closer to a solution to any other
problem either.

Science on the other hand has shown a steady
progression for about 500 years, and it has provided
some pretty clear cut solutions of the greatest
imagineable practical value, from the existence of
atoms to the existence of microbes to the existence
of genes to the use of speed-of-light communication
such as these PCs we are hacking away on all the time.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bronze Medal

It boils down to determinism = every effect is the direct result of another force. And indeterminism = at least some effects were not caused, they 'just happened'.

Yes, and the issue is so much in doubt that we
may exercise our Free will in chosing the one we
like the most for the time being.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bronze Medal

Now, the point you raise is that randomness does not necessarily preclude free-will, I of course disagree (didn't see that coming did you?).

Is something a choice if it was determined by a random function? I don't understand how someone could say 'yes' to this. Randomness excludes your 'will', so 'free' as it may be, it is not free-will.

Conversely, determinism includes will but excludes freedom.

Your issue lies with complete, chaotic randomness,
which is not a fact of natural and human history.

You have made a leap from saying that if some
randomness exists, then everything is random,
and that is not a logical step.

atheistwoody · #26 (**permalink**) 02-22-2008, 04:23 PM

Did anybody notice I kinda disproved God being Omnipetant and Omniscient. So that arguement is out the window.

atheistwoody · #27 (**permalink**) 02-22-2008, 06:12 PM

I dont know if youv got it over in the states or not but have any of you read 'The God Delusion' by Richard Dawkins. I can honestly say its a book that will affect your life, one way or the other.

USViking · #28 (**permalink**) 02-22-2008, 06:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bronze Medal

I'm not putting down science, I love science. I'm saying philosophy is better suited to find this answer, which it has already, for the past 2000 years people just don't want to accept it.

I won't hold you to exactly 2000 years, but 2000 years ago
would be 8AD (or 8CE if you prefer)- i.e. the customarily accepted
year of the birth of Christ.

Of course there were a lot of important philosophers before this date.

What is the name of the philosophy which solved the problem?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bronze Medal

Something caused you to choose the one you chose.

That something was me.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bronze Medal

I made one mistake but it's what you prescribe. If anything is random at all, there can be no deterministic model, so it would basically be a completely chaotic system, but completely random.
That doesn't make what I said wrong, any randomness that may or may not exist excludes 'free will' because it does not allow for your will, and determinism if that is true, does not allow for 'free will' because is excludes freedom.

Rewrite this. There is no telling what you mean as is.

USViking · #29 (**permalink**) 02-23-2008, 12:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bronze Medal

Hard Incompatibilism.

Meaning that Free Will cannot exist regardless
of whether Determinism is true or false.

I am curious- what 2000 year old philosophy
or philosopher enunciated this view?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bronze Medal

Really you can disprove free will without using philosophy, just simple deductions. how can your will be free? Free from what? All of your decisions are based on something, and that 'something' is your enviroment. Your will is limited strictly to your enviroment.

I think you are introducing the unsound requirement
that the will must be isolated from the rest of the
universe if it is to be free.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bronze Medal

If I truely had 'free-will' I could flap my arms right now and start flying if I wanted to.

No, it is not a requirement of Free Will that we
be able to perform feats of magic.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bronze Medal

'you' are nothing more than a pattern of electrons and chemicals. Every single part of you including your 'consciousness' is subject entirely to the laws of physics and your enviroment. If you have free will than so does a rock.

Human structure is a lot more complicated
than any rock, and holds more possibilities.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bronze Medal

I already have, in fact, that which you are requesting to be re-written itself was a rewrite.

It needs further revision.

USViking · #30 (**permalink**) 02-23-2008, 03:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bronze Medal

Me

Congratulations on your 2000th birthday.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bronze Medal

No but it does require a magical realm, if didn't how else could it be 'free' when in reality is confined to it's enviroment and the laws of physics?

"Free" in the context of Free Will does not
mean uncircumscribed.

It does not even mean that every act is
the result of the will, or that all will is free.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bronze Medal

complexity is relative completely. Just because we are complex doen't make us 'free' from the bounds of physics.

I never said that it did. But one atrribute of
our greater complexity is the ability to move
on our own and another is the ability to think.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bronze Medal

No matter how complex we are we still fall at a rate of 9.81 meters per second squared (just like rock does)

We can "fall" at several Mach thanks to our ability
to move and think.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bronze Medal

Re don't 'have' possibilites nor do we 'hold' them. The entire universe is a single structure that collectivly, as a unit holds any possibilities it may hold.

OK, guess.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bronze Medal

Anything that is a possibility to me is also a possibility for the rock.

Don't be absurd.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bronze Medal

You can even make it a direct relationship. Say I am holding a rock and considering throwing it. You might say I have two possibilies, to throw it or to not throw it, and thus the rock also has two possibility, to be thrown or to not be thrown.

This argument might work if the rock could
throw us.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bronze Medal

This principal applies to the relationship between every single atom in the universe, changing one changes all of them.

Your principle is invalid.