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  #1 (permalink)  
Old 05-02-2008, 01:35 AM
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The US government did attack the twin towers

No, not directly as the conspiracy theorists would have us believe but by their actions in trying to impose their political ideas on the rest of the world.

First a few facts:
1) US governments support Israel with free armaments creating the terrible situation in Palestine.
2) Israel uses the US granted power to oppress the very people whose land it has invaded and stolen.
This is the core problem that is driving most Muslim extremists in the world at the moment.
3) The US armed and financially supported the extremists now known as the Taliban in Afghanistan. (Remember Rambo 3?)
4) The US removed the democratically elected leaders in Iran in favour of their puppet leader the shah whose extremism created the conditions
for the rise of the regime we see at the moment.
5) The US armed Saddam in order to fight a proxy war against Iran.
6) The US moans on about Iran getting "the bomb" and neuclear proliferation but it was the US who gave Israel a neuclear capablity.
Not that I think Iran should have the bomb. That would be just too bloody dangerous with extremists in power.
7) The US created the situation in Iraq by removing Saddam in the hope of a government it was more able to control in it’s greed for oil.
8) The vast majority of Muslims are not extremists but just people wanting to live a life like anyone else.

So the intervention in Israel allowing that country’s government to freely kill the Palestinian people whose land it stole has created a hate for the US and it’s interfering
in Afghanistan to annoy the old soviet union created a state that allowed the terrorists to train and even funded them.
That led directly to a situation that caused the terrorist murders now known as 9/11.
The response of the US was to remove the Taliban from power and replace it with a more moderate government but has only been partially successful as the events of the past
days have shown.
The Bush administration with the foolish help of Tony Blair them went on to create the myth that Saddam was a supporter of terrorism and that he was capable of attacking the
west with weapons of mass destruction. Both of these allegations have not only never been proven but are now seen to be the lies they were. we saw in yesterday's news that this has again led to a massive rise in
terror attacks includiong the 7/7 london bombings. Bush and Blair both need to face serious questions about these lies.
Now don’t get me wrong, there is no way I support Saddam’s actions but I find no valid reason that the US can attack him without invading Zimbabwe as the government there does
at least as much harm to it’s own people as Saddam ever did.
So where will the US go from her? The nice future is that Obama will get the top job and start to change foreign policy including talking to the terrorists (or is that freedom fighters?) in Palestine to try to resolve
the core problems those previous US administrations created.
Sadly the reality is more likely to be that in it’s quest for power the US will continue to blunder on with it’s policy of doing whatever it can to pursue short term objectives giving no real
thought for the mess it creates for the future.
I want to mention at this point that I’m a white British Muslim living in Indonesia at the moment. I, like most of the people here, deplore terrorism and in no way support the actions of the
extremists but support the struggle for freedom of the Palestinian people. Remember that it’s the Palestinians who lost their land to an invading force and them that have to deal with the
consequences of US armaments killing anyone who gets in the way including women and children but I don’t suppose that gets on to US TV screens. In other countries we are lucky as we can see all sides of the
conflict on many stations including the British BBC.
So it’s my belief that the US of A has created it’s own enemies and so indirectly attacked the twin towers itself by creating the hate and funding the terrorist
groups when it was in the short term US interest to do so.
The only way to end terrorism is to follow the example of the British government in it’s conflict with the partially US supported terrorists of the IRA. They started talks with the killers that,
in time, allowed for a peace.
I’ve already mentioned that I live in Indonesia. As you may know this is a primarily Muslim developing country and one that is westward looking but with a small extremist element that
has some support but only as a result of US foreign policy. If you want to make more enemies try the usual US interference over here or make friends try spending some of that massive
war budget on social projects in countries like this and making sure everyone knows you are helping them while asking for nothing in return.
You will find that efforts like that along with a change in other policy would no only remove the support for terrorism and extremist groups but make you a few friends.
It works out much cheaper and no one has to get hurt.
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  #2 (permalink)  
Old 05-02-2008, 02:20 AM
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Shouldn't this be in the conspiracy theory section?
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Old 05-02-2008, 03:02 AM
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Originally Posted by Doctor Webley View Post
Shouldn't this be in the conspiracy theory section?
No.
It's a collection of undisputed facts with a conclusion.
You may not agree with the conclusion but can you argue with the facts?
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Old 05-02-2008, 09:17 AM
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Well, the title's a little misleading. At most, you could say that the U.S. Government provoked the 911 attacks. I would be willing to believe, with evidence, that they allowed the 911 attacks to happen and could have prevented it... though most likely they were merely incompetent.

I don't know if Bush ever said that Saddam was a threat to America beyond that they were sponsors of terrorism, which he later admitted was false. The WMDs which were never found (or maybe didn't really exist) were seen as a threat to our allies, i.e. Israel, whom I agree we should not support.

Israel has cost America a lot more than it is worth.
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Old 05-02-2008, 09:56 AM
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I agree roughly with what you are saying, though I don't think anything justified 9/11. (I'm not suggesting you said it did)

The historical facts you give are basically in tune with what I believe is correct.

There is no question that the Palestinian situation is the one which has allowed these things to come into being. It has allowed totally barbaric and power hungry people to jump on the genuine need of the Palestinian people and use this to recruit people to their own cause which is no doubt world domination.

The best thing for the world would be for Israel not to be so supported and instead realize the necessity of coming to a workable solution with the Palestinians.

I so don't think it goes with any concept of human rights to allow the Palestinian people to be left in this situation...I know most of this is being talked about on the 'free Palestine thread'.

And yes, the Afghan people did not deserve the Taliban and the US were being warned for ages about what they were like by a now dead Afghan leader whose name escapes me.

I have also often wondered why Israel thinks it needs to reply to terrorists attacks by bombing people. My goodness if we had done that in Ireland there would have been nothing left and there would have been far more terrorists due to their anger at our response.

I'll just need to hope that Obama gets in then.

And how our government went about supporting Iraq?????????? I have long had suspicion that that was all down to George Bush and Tony Blair having this god thing in common - completely sent sense out the window for Tony Blair.

Oh, I am white, non muslim.
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Old 05-02-2008, 10:42 AM
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Fred,
I have a question about #2. Didn't all the countries around Isreal plan on envading Isreal but got beat to the punch. So by building forces along the Isreal boarder for a staged invasion invite the war that caused the land to switch hands? I don't the states aroung Isreal expected to get beat so bad so quick. This is just based on my limited knowldge of the short war. I am not implying I am correct.
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Old 05-02-2008, 10:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fred View Post
No, not directly as the conspiracy theorists would have us believe but by their actions in trying to impose their political ideas on the rest of the world.
A few facts:

1) U.S. government sells arms to Israel so they can defend themselves from Egypt, Jordan, Syria, Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Iran, and Democrats.

2) Israel has just as much right to exist on the land it sits upon as any other nation that exists today from conquest in the past. In fact, it has given back more of it conquered land than just about any nation.

3) The Saudi Arabians armed and financially supported the extremists now known as the Taliban in Afghanistan. (Remember Rambo 3 was a movie where one guy killed hundreds with dental floss?)

4) The US removed the democratically elected leaders in Iran in favour of their puppet leader the shah whose extremism created the conditions for the rise of the regime we see at the moment.

5) The US armed Saddam in order to fight a proxy war against Iran, because at the time he was truly the democratically elected head of state. Iran was the first terrorist state that was trying to expand its power by conquering Iraq to get the oil reserves. The U.S. went by the “the enemy of my enemy is my friend” maxim and helped Iraq defend itself.

6) Israel stole nuclear technology from the U.S. and blackmailed the U.S. into helping Israel defend itself in order to prevent a nuclear war in the ME.

7) The US created the situation in Iraq by removing Saddam in the hope of a government it was more able to control in it’s ignorance of a culture.

8) The vast majority of Muslims are not extremists but just people wanting to live a life like anyone else.

So the U.S. intervention in Israel allowed that country to survive along with preventing nuclear holocost.

Saudi Arabia’s influence in Afghanistan to annoy the old Soviet Union created a state that allowed the terrorists to train and even funded them.

That led indirectly to a situation that caused the terrorist murders now known as 9/11.
The response of the US was to remove the Taliban from power and replace it with a more democratic government but has only been partially successful.

Last edited by colourislast : 05-02-2008 at 10:46 AM. Reason: typo
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Old 05-02-2008, 08:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fred View Post
"...it was the US who gave Israel a neuclear capablity..."

It's a collection of undisputed facts with a conclusion.
You may not agree with the conclusion but can you argue with the facts?
Prove this please. American government spokesmen had maintained for years that they did not know if Israel had the bomb or not. It is only of late that they say that Israel probably has nuclear weapons.
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Old 05-06-2008, 06:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fred View Post
No.
It's a collection of undisputed facts with a conclusion.
You may not agree with the conclusion but can you argue with the facts?
Sure you can. It's a conspiracy theory for Christ's sake. Ineptly persistent denial doesn't change that:

9/11 Conspiracy Theories - Wikipedia, The Free Encyclopedia

Hey look at that, it's a conspiracy theory.

Moved to Conspiracy Theories
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Old 05-07-2008, 06:21 AM
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American government spokesmen had maintained for years that they did not know if Israel had the bomb or not. It is only of late that they say that Israel probably has nuclear weapons.
Oh good, Isreal is a big boy now and can defend itself right? I actually heard they had subs with nukes. If that's true, then they really couldn't be nuked without retaliation.
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