Science vs. Scientism: Creation Science vs. Evolution - Page 10 - Political Forum

Slartibartfas · 10-16-2007, 02:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Agrippina

You are perfectly correct.
Creationists say that God created day and night before he created the sun, although how this was possible? The planets are thought to be 4.5 billion years old, somewhat older than the 5000-odd years that creationists will have us believe.
Now because we tend to think of evolution in relation to this, we tend to think that the first life on the planet was something sentient that could manipulate its environment. This is one of the things that creationists argue about. But that is not the case, the very first spark of life was probably something like a microvirus that evolved and transformed in its evolution. Again I will refer to the book I am working on. It is not yet ready for parts to be quoted here. Once it is I will show it to you and we can debate the content - I will be very happy to listen to arguments. Give me two weeks, exams will be done then I'll be working

Well microvirus might be a problematic term though, as a Virus has a hard day without living forms anyway...

But I know what you are meaning.

The newest theories are about self manipulating RNA, aren't they? More or less some sort of "half life" before the break through with the codifying of proteins.

Well, and the story about self assembling cell membranes that occur also without life is well known anyway, isn't it?

Agrippina · 10-16-2007, 02:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Slartibartfas

Well microvirus might be a problematic term though, as a Virus has a hard day without living forms anyway...

But I know what you are meaning.

The newest theories are about self manipulating RNA, aren't they? More or less some sort of "half life" before the break through with the codifying of proteins.

Well, and the story about self assembling cell membranes that occur also without life is well known anyway, isn't it?

Thanks you got what I was saying. I don't like to post one-liners but I'll excuse anyone else writing exams if they have a hard time focusing. I will be back with posts that make sense soon.

Oregon Elephant · 10-16-2007, 03:42 PM

I wonder if I fall under as a creationist because I believe that God made the Big Bang and could think of a way to tell Moses, so he just told Moses that he did it all in six days (seven, if you include the union required nap

).

Slartibartfas · 10-16-2007, 04:07 PM

You know what I find totally fascinating? That life is a system that only can function, and only create structure and organisation in its inside by increasing on the other side the chaos outside of it.

Agrippina · 10-16-2007, 04:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oregon Elephant

I wonder if I fall under as a creationist because I believe that God made the Big Bang and could think of a way to tell Moses, so he just told Moses that he did it all in six days (seven, if you include the union required nap

).

This is what happened, I know 'cos I'm a Jew.
White Moses was wandering through the desert for 40 years with this crowd of arguing Jews around him, the only way he could keep them from killing each other was to tell them stories, so he told them the story of creation and Noah, and Joseph and the Amazing Technicolor DreamCoat and being trapped by the Egyptians and some of the people remembered how they escaped from Egypt when the huge 7 point earthquake hit Thera just north of Crete and wiped out the Minoans causing the big tsunami that made the Red Sea split open and let them through. But these were old people so he had to keep the tales going for the youngsters. The people that were writing all this down on vellum from sheepskin which they got from the sheep that they slaughtered (or old sheep that died because they only ate manna), were the first rabbis.
He wandered around the desert getting older and older and older and the Jews were all squabbling and arranging marriages and boasting about their sons who were rabbis and healers and - they didn't have lawyers yet 'cos they didn't have a law. Anyway, the mothers of daughters looked around and they went to the Yenta to arrange marriages with these fine rabbis that had no laws to teach but then there were people from other tribes that gave them a hard time - so they fought as all Jewish people know, only Jews can fight. Because they were tired of wandering around the desert, they picked on Moses. How can we eat day after day, this manna bread and drink this dew off the sand (desert - no grass), we hate the freaking sandy dew and the manna does not taste like matzo balls and we really want some gefilte fish and there is no water with fish in, kvetch kvetch, the only way Jews can do that, its enough already. So Moses climbed up his mountain and watched them. He prayed to god to help him and he got inspiration. Everything he was watching them do, he told them they could not do that, no worshiping of golden idols, no killing, no sleeping around etc. This is how the first lawyers were born. The mothers were happy because they had lawyers for their daughters to marry, the rabbis were happy because they had their own private little club where they could ponder on things and the healers were happy because people were having babies again.
When the people were happy they finally got out of the desert and founded Israel. End of Story.

Oregon Elephant · 10-16-2007, 04:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Agrippina

This is what happened, I know 'cos I'm a Jew.
White Moses was wandering through the desert for 40 years with this crowd of arguing Jews around him, the only way he could keep them from killing each other was to tell them stories, so he told them the story of creation and Noah, and Joseph and the Amazing Technicolor DreamCoat and being trapped by the Egyptians and some of the people remembered how they escaped from Egypt when the huge 7 point earthquake hit Thera just north of Crete and wiped out the Minoans causing the big tsunami that made the Red Sea split open and let them through. But these were old people so he had to keep the tales going for the youngsters. The people that were writing all this down on vellum from sheepskin which they got from the sheep that they slaughtered (or old sheep that died because they only ate manna), were the first rabbis.
He wandered around the desert getting older and older and older and the Jews were all squabbling and arranging marriages and boasting about their sons who were rabbis and healers and - they didn't have lawyers yet 'cos they didn't have a law. Anyway, the mothers of daughters looked around and they went to the Yenta to arrange marriages with these fine rabbis that had no laws to teach but then there were people from other tribes that gave them a hard time - so they fought as all Jewish people know, only Jews can fight. Because they were tired of wandering around the desert, they picked on Moses. How can we eat day after day, this manna bread and drink this dew off the sand (desert - no grass), we hate the freaking sandy dew and the manna does not taste like matzo balls and we really want some gefilte fish and there is no water with fish in, kvetch kvetch, the only way Jews can do that, its enough already. So Moses climbed up his mountain and watched them. He prayed to god to help him and he got inspiration. Everything he was watching them do, he told them they could not do that, no worshiping of golden idols, no killing, no sleeping around etc. This is how the first lawyers were born. The mothers were happy because they had lawyers for their daughters to marry, the rabbis were happy because they had their own private little club where they could ponder on things and the healers were happy because people were having babies again.
When the people were happy they finally got out of the desert and founded Israel. End of Story.

I like your interpratation, I didn't know that anyone else knew of the earthquake that split the reed sea (a letter was left out on the translations by mistake).

The difference between that and what I basically believe is that it wasn't just inspiration that gave Moses the ideas, but God saying, "dude, you gotta do something." And than Moses says, "how about these as laws..."
"Well, that will cause confussion down the road, but it fixes the problems now, go for it."
And it was the devil that made Lawyers.

Agrippina · 10-16-2007, 05:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oregon Elephant

I like your interpratation, I didn't know that anyone else knew of the earthquake that split the reed sea (a letter was left out on the translations by mistake).

The difference between that and what I basically believe is that it wasn't just inspiration that gave Moses the ideas, but God saying, "dude, you gotta do something." And than Moses says, "how about these as laws..."
"Well, that will cause confussion down the road, but it fixes the problems now, go for it."
And it was the devil that made Lawyers.

You think?
I don't mind if you think it was god, I think he just got fed up with the fighting and went up on the mountain for some R&R, the guy was pretty old and very tired by this time. Imagine walking around in the desert for 40 years with flocks of sheep and goats and not being allowed to have some roast lamb, bummer

Oregon Elephant · 10-16-2007, 05:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Agrippina

You think?
I don't mind if you think it was god, I think he just got fed up with the fighting and went up on the mountain for some R&R, the guy was pretty old and very tired by this time. Imagine walking around in the desert for 40 years with flocks of sheep and goats and not being allowed to have some roast lamb, bummer

If we assume that the general idea of Moses was real (that he led them out of Egypt and into the Middle East, the fine details can be fuzzy), than he must have believed strongly in God and the peolpe, considering God punished Moses because of them and Moses didn't turn against God because of this unjust punishment.

Oregon Elephant · 10-16-2007, 06:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by W.J. Wilczek

Can’t anyone see the complete ridiculousness of this argument? (Do we suffer from some genetic defect that blinds us from the truth?) Indeed, we must to indulge such fancy.

I find it a bit insulting to discribe those that disagree with you to be a genertic defect. People have different views based upon what facts they have in front of them, and how they personally regard all the facts. But to lower the level of debate to high school name calling and innuendos is a poor reflection on any side of any debate.

Slartibartfas · 10-16-2007, 06:59 PM

Please keep it civil here.
The issue here is "Creation science vs Evolution". Insults from whatever side won't be helpful.