Has the Earth been visited by Alien Astronauts ? - Page 4 - Political Forum

Viv · 10-11-2007, 05:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oregon Elephant

One law of Physics is that the laws of physics here are the same everywhere in the universe. The speed of light from our sun is the same everywhere. The gravitation constant (which isn't constant, but that's because of different reasons I can go into if you want) is the same every where in the universe. The fact that nothing can accelerate beyond the speed of light is constant everywhere. There are some loop holes, but I'll let you figure them out.

And we are assuming that the species who "knew" the world was flat, "knows" the laws of physics...
I don't have as much belief in the infallibility of man.

Oregon Elephant · 10-11-2007, 05:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Viv

And we are assuming that the species who "knew" the world was flat, "knows" the laws of physics...
I don't have as much belief in the infallibility of man.

That's not a law of physics that was "discovered" by man, like general relativity or quantum mechs. If this law is not true, than no laws of physics can ever be laws because they can change. If the natural laws of physics can be different at different times or different places than there can be no science, because what could fly today (using aerodinamics) might not fly tomarrow.

Viv · 10-11-2007, 05:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oregon Elephant

That's not a law of physics that was "discovered" by man, like general relativity or quantum mechs. If this law is not true, than no laws of physics can ever be laws because they can change. If the natural laws of physics can be different at different times or different places than there can be no science, because what could fly today (using aerodinamics) might not fly tomarrow.

So you say. Computers, electricity, tv, the phone, were absolutely impossible...until someone found a way to make them.

Oregon Elephant · 10-11-2007, 06:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Viv

So you say. Computers, electricity, tv, the phone, were absolutely impossible...until someone found a way to make them.

They weren't absolutly imposible, they were unknown. It was once thought that it was imposible to break the speed of sound (with a plane), because the propeller couldn't accelerate the plane beyond that barrier. But the jet can, that is a different power source. They were correct in that the prop plane can't brake the sound barrier without the aid of gravity in a nose dive. We know that you can't break the speed of light using energy, in order to do it you need something besides energy. But what else is there?

Slartibartfas · 10-11-2007, 06:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oregon Elephant

That's true, unless the aliens moved in entire colonies as a whole nation rather than just as researchers. But than we're going into 100% speculation and imagination. But, yeah, when useing logic, want makes sense is that aliens almost certainly exsist, but it is nearly impossible for them to have come to Earth.

Pretty much that.

But I would not even rule out that they could under circumstances make the way to our planet. But than it would be pretty much a task of enormous dimensions and pretty much with the aim to colonize this solar system.

That could not be done in secrecy. No way. Whereas I guess they would prefer a solar system without intelligent life anyway for a second home...

Slartibartfas · 10-11-2007, 06:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Viv

But you're using our logic, our knowledge of physics and transport and our limited ability to travel through space.
Aliens might have an entirely different way...

As I have said, if our physical theories are not totally flawed, the laws are valid for the entire universe, or at least for the vast space that comes into question for travel.

And even if you suggest time travel at light speed, it takes a vast time for travels from one start to another, not to speak about distant stars...

Faster travel than light speed might be possible, but first of all its quite uncertain if any living being could survive that. More importantly however is the fact that the needed energy for those sorts of travels are way out of the possible. I mean we are talking here about more energy than there is in the entire Galaxy... for a single travel.

So you can choose: Either it needs centuries to travel, or unbelievable amounts of energy. Or the last option our very basic perceptions of physics are flawed. Fundamentally flawed in fact.

I mean, the real world is not Star Trek. It simply isn't...

Slartibartfas · 10-11-2007, 06:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oregon Elephant

I saw something on the discovery channel a while ago about aliens. The concept that they will look anything like us is ridiculous at best. All animals that have two eyes, evolved from a single unique ancestor that succeded because of it's two eyes (over say one eye or three eyes), so that got passed down to most living things, the same is for almost every trait the we share with other animals. But these ancestors were unique to earth. The probability of Aliens evolving in the same way as animals here on Earth is almost impossible, the best chance would be if their planet was just like Earth in climate, composistion and meteor history.

Well I dont think its totally ridiculous. There are evolutionary paths that even on our planet have been chosen by totally separate organisms in different ages. The reason? Its simply the best way to achieve a task for the organism.

Of course this won't make aliens look like us, but I would not be surprised if they have features that look similar to what we know. Of course beneath others that look totally alien...

Slartibartfas · 10-11-2007, 06:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Viv

So you say. Computers, electricity, tv, the phone, were absolutely impossible...until someone found a way to make them.

You are confusing here something. We are not talking about inventing applications.

We are talking about the limits of physics. No one is able nowadays to fly a space ship light speed. But the point is that even if those aliens could, it simply would not be fast enough....

But there is nothing with a mass traveling faster than light speed. And every way to evade this limitation needs unbelievable amounts of energy, making those options totally unthinkable, even for a race that is as progressed as possible.

Kazikli Bey · 10-11-2007, 07:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Slartibartfas

You are confusing here something. We are not talking about inventing applications.

We are talking about the limits of physics. No one is able nowadays to fly a space ship light speed. But the point is that even if those aliens could, it simply would not be fast enough....

But there is nothing with a mass traveling faster than light speed. And every way to evade this limitation needs unbelievable amounts of energy, making those options totally unthinkable, even for a race that is as progressed as possible.

Ah, but it fits in perfectly, even though we can't travel at lightspeed now, doesn't mean that it is not possible in the future? How can we actually tell if we can or cannot travel at lightspeed or faster if such a feat has not ever been attempted by mankind?

Oregon Elephant · 10-11-2007, 07:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Slartibartfas

You are confusing here something. We are not talking about inventing applications.

We are talking about the limits of physics. No one is able nowadays to fly a space ship light speed. But the point is that even if those aliens could, it simply would not be fast enough....

But there is nothing with a mass traveling faster than light speed. And every way to evade this limitation needs unbelievable amounts of energy, making those options totally unthinkable, even for a race that is as progressed as possible.

We could get into two branches of highly theoretically physics that both have the potential for "going faster than light." but they both have a vast majority of unknown and unpredictiblness as well as a huge amount of uncontrolibleness (I don't think that's a word, but you know). I'll go into them tomorrow, right now I have to go to class.

hint: it's not a Muon so don't even suggest it (I got into a looong debate over this with someone, because they didn't understand basic special relativity).