Bernard Law Montgomery - Political Forum

dahermit · 07-16-2007, 10:54 PM

I would like a discussion on Sir Bernard Law Montgomery, the greatest general of WWII, in regard to 1) El Alamein, 2) The raid on Diepe, 3) his timely advance and victory at Caan, 4)and his masterpiece: Market Garden.

USViking · 07-17-2007, 03:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dahermit

I would like a discussion on Sir Bernard Law Montgomery, the greatest general of WWII, in regard to 1) El Alamein, 2) The raid on Diepe, 3) his timely advance and victory at Caan, 4)and his masterpiece: Market Garden.

1) He won against a great general.

2) I didn't know he was involved.

3) He was up against some tough opponents.

4) It was a great idea. We might have been
short only a few thousand men of turning
the enemy flank.

dahermit · 07-17-2007, 05:27 PM

Quote:

1) He won against a great general.

His "great" victory was a farce. The enemy was at a huge disadvantage of men and tanks. A rabid band of Girl Scouts could have done what he did with the same equipment.

Quote:

2) I didn't know he was involved.

He planed it. It was too small for an invasion, too big for a raid. Just what was it? They could not have intended to stay (invasion); what was the military objective? Some historians claim it was a political act; to show that Americans that the British were a competent fighting force. It was a cluster f----. With the Canadians paying a huge price in killed, wounded, and captured.

Quote:

3) He was up against some tough opponents.

He assured Eisenhower several times that he would and could do it in (I cannot remember the exact number, I think 3 days). It turned into weeks; he let the allies down and then he had the balls afterward to say that he had intended to drag it out into weeks all along.

Quote:

4) It was a great idea. We might have been short only a few thousand men of turning the enemy flank.

It was one of the worst cluster f---- in WWII. The allied casualties were greater than the Normandy landing. It was a blood bath. They jumped the paratroopers in daylight (in one instance 13 miles from their objective-on purpose, as part of the plan). The single road was too narrow, tanks could not maneuver. The port of Antwerp was left occupied on the flank of the advance. It is amazing that they were as successful as they were. Nevertheless, it was all for nothing.

They should have assassinated Montgomery and told the British that he died in battle.

USViking · 07-17-2007, 10:24 PM

It is not part of my brief that Montomery was
a great captain. However, he used what he had
effectively enough to contribute significantly to
the allied victory. He did not fight a perfect war.
No one ever does.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dahermit

His "great" victory was a farce. The enemy was at a huge disadvantage of men and tanks. A rabid band of Girl Scouts could have done what he did with the same equipment.

I would not like his chances against Rommel in an
even fight. The same could be said for all or almost
all other Allied generals.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dahermit

He planed it. It was too small for an invasion, too big for a raid. Just what was it? They could not have intended to stay (invasion); what was the military objective? Some historians claim it was a political act; to show that Americans that the British were a competent fighting force. It was a cluster f----. With the Canadians paying a huge price in killed, wounded, and captured.

I would like some citation links for his role at Dieppe.
The Wikipedia article on the operation only says of
Montgomery that he wanted to call it off.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dahermit

He assured Eisenhower several times that he would and could do it in (I cannot remember the exact number, I think 3 days). It turned into weeks; he let the allies down and then he had the balls afterward to say that he had intended to drag it out into weeks all along.

No D-Day units was anywhere close to being
on schedule.

Many of Germany's best divisions including
four SS armored were defending he Caen sector.

Wherever the Germans were able to dig in,
East or West, no operation against them
proceeded on schedule for the entire war,
probably.

I doubt very much he ever said he "intended"
to drag anything out.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dahermit

It was one of the worst cluster f---- in WWII. The allied casualties were greater than the Normandy landing. It was a blood bath. They jumped the paratroopers in daylight (in one instance 13 miles from their objective-on purpose, as part of the plan). The single road was too narrow, tanks could not maneuver. The port of Antwerp was left occupied on the flank of the advance. It is amazing that they were as successful as they were. Nevertheless, it was all for nothing.

If the Allies had one more airborne division
it might have worked. Similarly if the Germans
had not had 7000 men refitting near Arnem.
Similarly if the drop zones had been closer to
the town.

The daylight landings resulted in few casualties
and were a resounding success. It was what
occurred after the landings which queered the
operation.

Montgomery's mistake was discounting clear
intelligence of German forces near Arnem.

Antwerp had been taken by the allies prior to
Market Gerden. German forces holding out
in the Scheldt estuary were not a counter-
offensive threat.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dahermit

They should have assassinated Montgomery and told the British that he died in battle.

A bit much.

dahermit · 07-18-2007, 11:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dahermit
His "great" victory was a farce. The enemy was at a huge disadvantage of men and tanks. A rabid band of Girl Scouts could have done what he did with the same equipment.

I would not like his chances against Rommel in an
even fight. The same could be said for all or almost
all other Allied generals.

It was nowhere near an even fight. Rommel was low on gas, he was bottled-up and could not maneuver, had half the tanks (and half the men) Monty had; which were mostly inferior Italian made compared to Monty's new supply of Shermans. Even Rommel could not overcome this disadvantage.

[quote]

Quote:

Originally Posted by dahermit
He planed it. It was too small for an invasion, too big for a raid. Just what was it? They could not have intended to stay (invasion); what was the military objective? Some historians claim it was a political act; to show that Americans that the British were a competent fighting force. It was a cluster f----. With the Canadians paying a huge price in killed, wounded, and captured.

I would like some citation links for his role at Dieppe.
QUOTE]Would your uncle dahermit lie to you?
"In April 1942 General Bernard Montgomery and Admiral Louis Mountbatten began to plan the invasion. It was originally due to take place in July but bad weather resulted in it being postponed until August."

Dieppe Raid

Quote:

Originally Posted by dahermit
He assured Eisenhower several times that he would and could do it in (I cannot remember the exact number, I think 3 days). It turned into weeks; he let the allies down and then he had the balls afterward to say that he had intended to drag it out into weeks all along.

No D-Day units was anywhere close to being
on schedule.

All the invasion forces managed to defeat the beach defenses and move inland on the first day, including Omaha Beach with of course was the worse.

"The French city of Caen was the original D-Day objective of the 2nd British Army led by General Bernard Montgomery. The city was considered important because of its location, rail system, and its use by the Germans as a communications center.

On July 7th, a month after the Allied landings at Normandy, General Montgomery, who had been unable to breach the city's defenses, ordered a massive bombing raid. The aerial attack caused the deaths of approximately 5,000 French citizens and heavily damaged the city, but did not significantly weaken the German defenders.

In spite of their previous failures, Montgomery's forces were able to capture sections of Caen a few days later after facing fierce German resistance. The entire city was under Allied control by July 19th." Note: a month after D-Day.

Saving Private Ryan: Caen, France

Quote:

I doubt very much he ever said he "intended"to drag anything out.

No, he never intended that, it was just his lame excuse which he put in his memoirs.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dahermit
It was one of the worst cluster f---- in WWII. The allied casualties were greater than the Normandy landing. It was a blood bath. They jumped the paratroopers in daylight (in one instance 13 miles from their objective-on purpose, as part of the plan). The single road was too narrow, tanks could not maneuver. The port of Antwerp was left occupied on the flank of the advance. It is amazing that they were as successful as they were. Nevertheless, it was all for nothing.

If the Allies had one more airborne division
it might have worked. Similarly if the Germans
had not had 7000 men refitting near Arnem.
Similarly if the drop zones had been closer to
the town.

It had too many interdependant elements to be successful...it was doomed from the start.

Quote:

The daylight landings resulted in few casualties
and were a resounding success. It was what
occurred after the landings which queered the
operation.

Tell that to the Polish paratroopers who were not part of the first jump. And the paratroopers that had to double-time 13 miles to the objective.

Quote:

Montgomery's mistake was discounting clear
intelligence of German forces near Arnhem.

Just one of his "mistakes". See what he said about not taking Antwerp first in citations below.

Quote:

Antwerp had been taken by the allies prior to
Market Gerden. .

Not so.
::Antwerp and World War Two::
Operation MARKET-GARDEN

Antwerp was not liberated before Market Garden.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dahermit
They should have assassinated Montgomery and told the British that he died in battle.

A bit much.

Monty was responsible for more allied casualties than most German generals.
Was a pompous little twit with an average mind who was consumed by his own ego. He even took singular credit for stopping and turning back the Germans in the Battle of the Bulge.

USViking · 07-18-2007, 12:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dahermit

It was nowhere near an even fight. Rommel was low on gas, he was bottled-up and could not maneuver, had half the tanks (and half the men) Monty had; which were mostly inferior Italian made compared to Monty's new supply of Shermans. Even Rommel could not overcome this disadvantage.

You have not understood my comment.

I was agreeing Rommel would have prevailed
in an even fight.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dahermit

Would your uncle dahermit lie to you?
"In April 1942 General Bernard Montgomery and Admiral Louis Mountbatten began to plan the invasion. It was originally due to take place in July but bad weather resulted in it being postponed until August."

Dieppe Raid

Fine, but if he then recommended cancelling the
operation then he is relieved of further responsibility.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dahermit

All the invasion forces managed to defeat the beach defenses and move inland on the first day, including Omaha Beach with of course was the worse.

"The French city of Caen was the original D-Day objective of the 2nd British Army led by General Bernard Montgomery. The city was considered important because of its location, rail system, and its use by the Germans as a communications center.

On July 7th, a month after the Allied landings at Normandy, General Montgomery, who had been unable to breach the city's defenses, ordered a massive bombing raid. The aerial attack caused the deaths of approximately 5,000 French citizens and heavily damaged the city, but did not significantly weaken the German defenders.

In spite of their previous failures, Montgomery's forces were able to capture sections of Caen a few days later after facing fierce German resistance. The entire city was under Allied control by July 19th." Note: a month after D-Day.

Saving Private Ryan: Caen, France

No sector came close to reaching its objective.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dahermit

No, he never intended that, it was just his lame excuse which he put in his memoirs.

I would have to read this in context. If he agreed
to the original objective then he could not sensibly
claim he had his fingers crossed at the time.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dahermit

It had too many interdependant elements to be successful...it was doomed from the start.

Good chance of success if only those German units
had not been refitting in the area.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dahermit

Tell that to the Polish paratroopers who were not part of the first jump. And the paratroopers that had to double-time 13 miles to the objective.

First day drops were all over 80% intact after landing.

Elite troops are supposed to be able to double-time
indefinitely.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dahermit

Just one of his "mistakes". See what he said about not taking Antwerp first in citations below.

Not so.
::Antwerp and World War Two::
Operation MARKET-GARDEN

Antwerp was not liberated before Market Garden.

You have not read your own link:

(from the link):

Quote:

On September 3rd, Montgomery ordered General Dempsey, head of the British 2nd Army, to occupy Antwerp. The 11th Armoured Division did just this on September 4th. There was some resistance but, with the help of the Belgium Resistance, this was crushed with some ease. However, holding Antwerp was not enough. The Allies needed to control the West and East Scheldt – areas of sea to the north-west of Antwerp.

As I said earlier it was German forces in the Scheldt
estuary who were causing the problem.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dahermit

Monty was responsible for more allied casualties than most German generals.
Was a pompous little twit with an average mind who was consumed by his own ego. He even took singular credit for stopping and turning back the Germans in the Battle of the Bulge.

A bit much.

dahermit · 07-18-2007, 01:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dahermit
No, he never intended that, it was just his lame excuse which he put in his memoirs.

I would have to read this in context. If he agreed
to the original objective then he could not sensibly
claim he had his fingers crossed at the time.

That is my point. He was not sensible. Read his self-serving memoir and you will see him for what he was.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dahermit
Monty was responsible for more allied casualties than most German generals.
Was a pompous little twit with an average mind who was consumed by his own ego. He even took singular credit for stopping and turning back the Germans in the Battle of the Bulge.

A bit much.

So you say. Did you have a point to make here?

The most likely reason for him not being sacked was that Eisenhower thought that the British needed a symbolic war hero.

Zarcero · 06-24-2008, 09:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dahermit

...Sir Bernard Law Montgomery, the greatest general of WWII...his masterpiece: Market Garden.

You must be joking. Great general not. Market Garden would not be considered a "masterpiece" by any means whatsoever.

dahermit · 06-24-2008, 12:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zarcero

You must be joking. Great general not. Market Garden would not be considered a "masterpiece" by any means whatsoever.

Off course I was joking. There were more allied casualties in Market Garden than on D-day, and it resulted in no military gain. Just like Dieppe; lots of casualties, no military gain (another Monty plan).