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  #41 (permalink)  
Old 04-23-2008, 01:09 PM
jaro jaro is offline
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Originally Posted by Truth-Bringer View Post
??? A strong military is not a factor in a war? Sure, population is obviously a factor, but a smaller force has defeated a larger force many times in military history.
We are speaking about small countries like Switzerland, Belgium, Austria. No matter how strong your army is, you cannot defeat a country that has equally or slighly weaker military than you, but 10x more population in a conventional war.
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  #42 (permalink)  
Old 04-23-2008, 01:53 PM
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We are speaking about small countries like Switzerland, Belgium, Austria. No matter how strong your army is, you cannot defeat a country that has equally or slighly weaker military than you, but 10x more population in a conventional war.
A minority of Iraqi insurgents are currently preventing the U.S. military from achieving its objectives in that "small country."
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  #43 (permalink)  
Old 04-23-2008, 02:03 PM
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A minority of Iraqi insurgents are currently preventing the U.S. military from achieving its objectives in that "small country."
That's why jaro said "in a conventional war". Obviously you can't fight an ideology with guns...
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  #44 (permalink)  
Old 04-24-2008, 10:55 AM
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That's why jaro said "in a conventional war". Obviously you can't fight an ideology with guns...
The "conventional" term doesn't mean a whole lot in the big picture. If you want to invade and occupy a country, you will encounter guerrilla tactics if the population resists. A country could be invaded and occupied in a conventional war, yet still resist and prevent total control by the invading force.
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  #45 (permalink)  
Old 04-24-2008, 12:40 PM
jaro jaro is offline
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Originally Posted by Truth-Bringer
The "conventional" term doesn't mean a whole lot in the big picture. If you want to invade and occupy a country, you will encounter guerrilla tactics if the population resists. A country could be invaded and occupied in a conventional war, yet still resist and prevent total control by the invading force.
I can't imagine any EU country producing insurgency/terrorism if occupied (by some other european country) like we see in Iraq. Protests, refusal to cooperate and strikes would be the most probable reaction. There is also an option of destroying country's army, infrastructure and leaving immediately.

Conventional war still means a lot, countries with the most capable armies are the most respected ones. Nobody respects Iraq just because it has zillion terrorists.
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  #46 (permalink)  
Old 04-25-2008, 01:34 PM
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Nobody respects Iraq just because it has zillion terrorists.
Respect is irrelevant in the final equation. No one may respect Iraq, but since it's going to cost trillions to occupy, secure and rebuild it, who on earth can afford it? Armies and occupations are funded by taxes - and taxes can only be maintained with a productive economy. Raise taxes and put too much strain on that economy, and your productivity will slide. Which, in a cycle, will affect ability to maintain armies and provide food, equipment, etc. You guys aren't seeing the big picture.
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  #47 (permalink)  
Old 04-25-2008, 03:32 PM
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I'm not saying yes or no to the thread, but spain stayed pretty neutral, but slightly towards the germans, and nothing happened to them, although they had just been in a devastating war.
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  #48 (permalink)  
Old 04-25-2008, 03:38 PM
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I'm not saying yes or no to the thread, but spain stayed pretty neutral, but slightly towards the germans, and nothing happened to them, although they had just been in a devastating war.
What do you mean? WW2 or today? As far as I know Spain was attacked by al-kaida during that train bombing.

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Originally Posted by Truth-Bringer
Respect is irrelevant in the final equation. No one may respect Iraq, but since it's going to cost trillions to occupy, secure and rebuild it, who on earth can afford it? Armies and occupations are funded by taxes - and taxes can only be maintained with a productive economy. Raise taxes and put too much strain on that economy, and your productivity will slide. Which, in a cycle, will affect ability to maintain armies and provide food, equipment, etc. You guys aren't seeing the big picture.
Iraq is an excellent training ground for US army.
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  #49 (permalink)  
Old 04-25-2008, 04:52 PM
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Iraq is an excellent training ground for US army.
The US military is close to reaching its breaking point thanks to Iraq.
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  #50 (permalink)  
Old 04-25-2008, 04:54 PM
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From the Early Warning Report of October 2006 by Richard Maybury:

"In World War II, one of the most famous German
tank units was the fearsome Panzer Lehr Division. On
the morning of July 25, 1944, Panzer Lehr was in the
path of Allied forces moving eastward across France
near St. Lo.

Panzer Lehr had 2,200 men and 45 operational tanks.
The Allied attack on Panzer Lehr began with waves
of P-47 Thunderbolt fighters, fifty at a time. Every two
minutes a wave would sweep across Panzer Lehr,
dropping a hurricane of napalm.

The P-47s departed, and were replaced by waves of
medium bombers dropping 500-pound bombs.

After the medium bombers were through, the
surviving Germans heard 1,500 heavy four-engine B-17
and B-24 bombers. Try to imagine the sound of 6,000
engines headed directly at you.

The B-17s and B-24s laid a carpet of bombs across
Panzer Lehr, churning the earth into a landscape of
craters and wreckage; 55-ton tanks were thrown into the
air, landing in pieces upside down.

After the heavy bombers departed, another 300 P-38
Lightning fighters swept across the remnants of Panzer
Lehr, dropping incendiaries and anti-personnel fragmentation
bombs.

Then hundreds of artillery pieces opened up. After
them, battalions of Allied tanks came in.

The 45 tanks of Panzer Lehr had been attacked by
more than 2,000 planes.


In war as in peace, humans have two general ways to
get things done — use labor, or capital. To destroy
Panzer Lehr, US generals could have sent legions of
troops, and suffered hundreds of casualties. Instead
they used machinery.

Labor vs. Capital on the Battlefield

Ever since the Civil War, which was the world’s first
industrial war, the US armed forces have always chosen
“big iron” over body bags. Big iron is expensive, but
the American taxpayer has been willing to pay for it.

A World War II four-engine B-24 bomber contained
1.5 million parts. Henry Ford’s Willow Run plant
turned out one B-24 every 63 minutes.

A total of 18,188 B-24s were built at all aircraft
plants, in addition to 12,729 B-17s and 3,970 B-29s.
That’s a total of 34,887 four-engine heavy bombers.

The number of four-engine heavy bombers put into
the air by technological pipsqueaks Germany and Japan
together was 204. Their gadget shops produced impressive
inventions, but these little countries had sparse
ability to mass produce them.


Of the 46 divisions Hitler had in France in 1941, 1.5
were mechanized; the other 44.5 were foot soldiers and
horses. When the Americans invaded Normandy in
June 1944, the entire US military force was mechanized;
the Germans were dependent on 1.25 million
horses.

The most powerful and decisive weapon of World
War II (and still today) was the aircraft carrier. The
Germans tried to build one, but failed to solve the
technical problems. The Americans built 146 carriers
in 44 months.
Laid end-to-end, they’d stretch 17
miles end - to-end, total US tanks built in WWII would
stretch 300 miles.

Wingtip to wingtip, total planes, 3,600 miles.

At any given moment, the average Japanese soldier
deployed in the Pacific was accompanied by two
pounds of supplies. The American, four tons.

Generals Patton, MacArthur, Eisenhower and their
associates have received the credit, but it was really
General Motors, General Dynamics and Rosie the
Riveter who buried the enemy — under a Himalaya of
US hardware.

Washington’s amazing ratio of capital to labor is
why less than 1% of the people killed in World War II
were Americans."

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Excellent article - thanks Truth-Bringer.
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