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  #11 (permalink)  
Old 04-07-2008, 08:31 PM
dahermit dahermit is offline
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Originally Posted by The Lying Dutchman View Post
indeed. we werent attacked in ww1 and run over in a day or so in ww2..neutrality means shit if you're in a possible tactical position.
I thought that the Netherlands were attacked in WWI. Was that not part of the Schleppen (Likely misspelled) Plan that Germany followed in WWI? Is this wrong?
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  #12 (permalink)  
Old 04-07-2008, 08:49 PM
nerv14 nerv14 is offline
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Switzerland has not been in any wars for hundreds of years because of the mountains around Switzerland and not just their neutrality. Even if Switzerland did have enemies and didn't work on creating the powerful mountain defenses, many countries wouldn't have attacked Switzerland because of their inherent natural defenses.
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  #13 (permalink)  
Old 04-07-2008, 09:55 PM
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Originally Posted by dahermit View Post
I thought that the Netherlands were attacked in WWI. Was that not part of the Schleppen (Likely misspelled) Plan that Germany followed in WWI? Is this wrong?
The Dutchman is correct,of course. The Netherlands were neutral in WW1. After the war "Der Kaiser" went even to live there in exile. If memory serves me well he also is burried there.
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  #14 (permalink)  
Old 04-08-2008, 05:22 AM
The Lying Dutchman The Lying Dutchman is offline
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Originally Posted by Martin View Post
The Dutchman is correct,of course. The Netherlands were neutral in WW1. After the war "Der Kaiser" went even to live there in exile. If memory serves me well he also is burried there.
i actually wouldnt know if he's buried here, never heard this. he did indeed hold residence here though.
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  #15 (permalink)  
Old 04-08-2008, 07:40 AM
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I'm sure geography, neutrality, defenses, and the banks were all important factors for preserving peace.

I think the main point of contention about the effectiveness of neutrality to prevent things like terrorism is whether the Islamic extremists attack us because we intervene in their affairs, or if they attack us because they want to destroy freedom and our way of life, as Bush puts it. I'm sure a couple of them simply want to destroy us, but I'm sure Bin Laden would find his recruit pools rather dry if not for America's arrogant and interventionistic foreign policy.
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Old 04-08-2008, 12:26 PM
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Originally Posted by africanhope View Post
Just a historical point - Belgium too was neutral, and attacked in both World Wars. Neutrality does not guerantee that you will not be attacked.

AH
But Belgium was not as prepared, militarily, as Switzerland was. You have to be neutral AND militarily strong. The Swiss national militia is a perfect model for this.
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Old 04-08-2008, 12:30 PM
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They have abolished that "gun control" mentioned in the article above recently. Swiss are not obliged anymore to have a weapon at home.

They also have abolished the huge fortress system that would have turned 1/3 of Switzerland into a freaking unconquerable alpine fortress guarded by heavy weaponed mountain bunker-barracks aiming at the incoming valleys with bomb proof artillery. The plans to evacuate the Swiss into this alpine fortress in case of attack and give up the cities outside are no more.

Switzerland reacted by that on the changing reality. It has only one neighbor anymore, the EU and there is no way, that this neighbor would invade, nor is there any sign that anyone else would invade the EU, and even less that the one would like to conquer Switzerland afterwards.


Last but not least, why has Switerland not been attacked in WWII? Because it was the bank for all sides. No one deliberately bombs his bank away. Not to forget that it was a mountainous bank as well, and everyone who saw the mountain war during WWI between Austria and Italy knows that this is hard fight with little reward.
Good points, but you're still leaving out some things:

"Neither Nationalist nor Socialist: How the Swiss Kept Their Freedom in World War II"

(by Walter Olson of the Manhattan Institute, from Reason Magazine)

An "island of liberty and harmony in a sea of dictatorship and discord" and "a citadel of peace through stormy centuries," to quote a 1938 New York Times analysis; "it is a land of hard work and frugal habits, of justice and cleanness and tolerance, of the very essence of live-and-let-live" -- and, not incidentally, the bulwark of free-market capitalism in Europe. To say that Switzerland enjoyed a favorable reputation in America until recently would be to understate matters. Today, after a relentless and astonishingly one-sided media campaign, there is scarcely a horror tale about the Swiss too extreme or absurd to be picked up in the press.

The assault began with widely circulated allegations -- the truth is less clear-cut than news reports have made it sound -- that Swiss banks swallowed great sums deposited in private accounts by victims of the Holocaust. (At press time, Swiss banks had reached a tentative agreement to settle those allegations, and avert threatened sanctions, by paying more than $1 billion.)

Picking up its own momentum, the indictment soon expanded into a depiction of the Swiss as a nation of heartless profiteers, "Hitler's silent partners," working to advance the Nazi cause without being shot at. In June the Los Angeles-based Simon Wiesenthal Center made worldwide headlines by issuing a report claiming that pro-Nazi activity "thoroughly saturated...the core of Swiss society." Teenagers now grow up hearing that the Swiss spent World War II rooting for the Axis powers.

Now Stephen Halbrook, an attorney and well-known Second Amendment expert (he's the author of 1984's That Every Man Be Armed), has taken a much-needed look at the Swiss wartime record in a new book titled "Target Switzerland: Swiss Armed Neutrality in World War II." The book not only provides a starting point for all future discussions of Switzerland's military role in the war, but also makes an interesting contribution to the literature on both federalism and gun rights; according to Halbrook, Switzerland's traditions of extreme decentralization and of a well-armed populace played a key role in preserving its freedom in an hour of peril.

Rest of article at:

New Page 2
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  #18 (permalink)  
Old 04-08-2008, 02:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Truth-Bringer View Post
Good points, but you're still leaving out some things:

"Neither Nationalist nor Socialist: How the Swiss Kept Their Freedom in World War II"

(by Walter Olson of the Manhattan Institute, from Reason Magazine)

An "island of liberty and harmony in a sea of dictatorship and discord" and "a citadel of peace through stormy centuries," to quote a 1938 New York Times analysis; "it is a land of hard work and frugal habits, of justice and cleanness and tolerance, of the very essence of live-and-let-live" -- and, not incidentally, the bulwark of free-market capitalism in Europe. To say that Switzerland enjoyed a favorable reputation in America until recently would be to understate matters. Today, after a relentless and astonishingly one-sided media campaign, there is scarcely a horror tale about the Swiss too extreme or absurd to be picked up in the press.

The assault began with widely circulated allegations -- the truth is less clear-cut than news reports have made it sound -- that Swiss banks swallowed great sums deposited in private accounts by victims of the Holocaust. (At press time, Swiss banks had reached a tentative agreement to settle those allegations, and avert threatened sanctions, by paying more than $1 billion.)

Picking up its own momentum, the indictment soon expanded into a depiction of the Swiss as a nation of heartless profiteers, "Hitler's silent partners," working to advance the Nazi cause without being shot at. In June the Los Angeles-based Simon Wiesenthal Center made worldwide headlines by issuing a report claiming that pro-Nazi activity "thoroughly saturated...the core of Swiss society." Teenagers now grow up hearing that the Swiss spent World War II rooting for the Axis powers.

Now Stephen Halbrook, an attorney and well-known Second Amendment expert (he's the author of 1984's That Every Man Be Armed), has taken a much-needed look at the Swiss wartime record in a new book titled "Target Switzerland: Swiss Armed Neutrality in World War II." The book not only provides a starting point for all future discussions of Switzerland's military role in the war, but also makes an interesting contribution to the literature on both federalism and gun rights; according to Halbrook, Switzerland's traditions of extreme decentralization and of a well-armed populace played a key role in preserving its freedom in an hour of peril.

Rest of article at:

New Page 2

Well I do not really see how this adresses the point that Switzerland was one of the major war profiteers. It had not really a damage but could sack a lot of lost Nazi money. When no one is left to claim it and no one knows anything the money remained where it was at the large Swiss banks.

The Swiss did not do much harm to anyone, but the vastly profitated from the cruelties and crimes of WWII.
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  #19 (permalink)  
Old 04-08-2008, 02:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Truth-Bringer View Post
But Belgium was not as prepared, militarily, as Switzerland was. You have to be neutral AND militarily strong. The Swiss national militia is a perfect model for this.
Belgium was strategically very important, Switzerland was not. Not in those specific cases. The geography did also help a lot in favor of the Swiss.

Belgium could have militarized as much as it wanted, it would not have saved them, unless they would have ruined their economy and put every single coin into the army already before the war and even then...
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  #20 (permalink)  
Old 04-08-2008, 03:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Slartibartfas View Post
Belgium was strategically very important, Switzerland was not. Not in those specific cases. The geography did also help a lot in favor of the Swiss.
Well I'm certainly not claiming that the geography couldn't be considered a factor, but I still think that the policy is more important.

Quote:
Belgium could have militarized as much as it wanted, it would not have saved them, unless they would have ruined their economy and put every single coin into the army already before the war and even then...
A successful insurgency doesn't have to be expensive. See: Iraq. The Swiss policy was simply never to surrender. The President told them that any alleged surrender would be Nazi propaganda and should be ignored. If the vast majority of your population is willing to fight to the death, you make it very costly for a foreign power to try and invade you.

Iraq is thwarting the will of the most powerful military on earth with a small minority of its population. Imagine if the majority of its people were participating in the insurgency.

Granted, in comparison to the U.S., the the majority of Nazis were totally ruthless and had no regard for any human life, but still, there are instances where they were beaten by people who were far less well equipped. They could have overrun the Swiss, but they could have never ended the insurgency. And the "victory" would have been incredibly costly. And, no "what ifs" are set in stone. Its possible that the Swiss could have repelled them. The terrain could have aided them just as the climate aided the Russians in their victory.
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