Political Forum

Dear guest,

Welcome to the internet's top destination for the civil discussion of politics. This is a forum for discussion and debate of the issues, and not for personal remarks aimed at other discussants.

This forum has no political affiliation and welcomes your perspective on the issues. Membership is free. If you would like to join the discussions and debates please REGISTER HERE.

All new members should review the forum rules. The "Today's Posts" button automatically adjusts itself to fit your screen on its first use for Firefox and on its second use, for Internet Explorer. Have a pleasant day. (This is a spam free board.)

  #1 (permalink)  
Old 02-23-2008, 04:26 PM
W.E.B. Du Bois's Avatar
W.E.B. Du Bois W.E.B. Du Bois is online now
Moderator
Napolitano or Sebelius for VP; make history, Obama
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 12,389
Country:
US Stealth Bomber Crashes in Guam

The pilots are safe.

We gotta stop flying these planes too much. This was inevitable. You don't use these planes unless you absolutely have to. They are too expensive to replace.

VOA News - US Stealth Bomber Crashes in Guam
Quote:
US Stealth Bomber Crashes in Guam
By Kurt Achin
23 February 2008



U.S. military officers say two air force pilots are safe after their B-2 Stealth Bomber crashed on the island of Guam. VOA's Kurt Achin is monitoring the situation from Seoul and has this report. The crash occurred Saturday morning local time as the B-2 Stealth bomber was taking off from Andersen Air Force base on Guam, a U.S. territory that lies south of Japan.

U.S. Technical Sergeant Tom Czerwinski, of the U.S. Pacific Air Force Public Affairs office in Hawaii, says no lives were lost. "The cause of crash is unknown, pending an investigation," he said. "The pilots had ejected safely - no serious injuries. One is mobile, one is still in the hospital under observation."

A board of investigators is being assembled to evaluate the incident. U.S. officials speculate some preliminary information may be available within 30 days. This is the first crash of a B-2, a $1.2 billion aircraft which uses highly advanced materials and technology to evade radar. It was first deployed in combat in the 1990s Balkan conflict, and later in U.S.-led actions in Afghanistan and Iraq.

The United States has 21 of the bombers, which it rotates through theaters around the world, including here in South Korea, where the United States maintains 28,000 forces to deter potential aggression from North Korea. This is the second U.S. Air Force accident in several days. On Wednesday, a U.S. fighter pilot was killed in a collision during a combat training exercise over the Gulf of Mexico.
__________________
"Of course the fact that a person believes in racial equality doesn't prove that he's a communist...but it certainly makes you look twice, doesn't it? You can't get away from the fact that racial equality is part of the communist line." - Joseph McCarthy

Political Forum Diplomacy Game Map (In Progress)
Current Diplomacy thread


Reply With Quote
  #2 (permalink)  
Old 02-23-2008, 05:10 PM
Caltex's Avatar
Caltex Caltex is offline
Earl
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,842
Location: Austin, Texas
Country:
holy shit, $1.2 billion. I guess they were training/practicing flying. Still that's a mighty expensive training mission.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #3 (permalink)  
Old 02-23-2008, 08:42 PM
rsather139 rsather139 is offline
Mercenary
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 230
Location: Seattle
Country:
Agreed. We should really only use the stealths if we have to use them for nuclear payloads or when we go to war with another modern military. The B-52s and other aircraft are just as effective when you don't have to worry about enemy fighters. I wonder if they will replace/repair it?
__________________
"If Hitler invaded hell I would make at least a favorable reference to the devil"
-Winston Churchill

"It is dangerous to be right on matters where the established authority is wrong."
-Voltaire
Reply With Quote
  #4 (permalink)  
Old 02-23-2008, 09:42 PM
TeaSea TeaSea is offline
Mercenary
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 299
Location: Portland, Oregon
Country:
Quote:
Originally Posted by W.E.B. Du Bois View Post
The pilots are safe.

We gotta stop flying these planes too much. This was inevitable. You don't use these planes unless you absolutely have to. They are too expensive to replace.

VOA News - US Stealth Bomber Crashes in Guam
I saw one of those creatures at an airshow here last summer. Omigod wow. And after my jaw finished dropping, it did cross my mind...this is just P.R. - what if???
Reply With Quote
  #5 (permalink)  
Old 02-24-2008, 06:17 AM
Brother Oz Brother Oz is offline
Viceroy
Sophist
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 3,076
Location: Wales
Country:
Guam is an American territory, right? So I guess that Caltex is right in it being a training mission. The thing is, to get the most out of these high-tech, expensive machines, you have to have the pilots practice with them a lot. If you do get in a war with another modern, major power, and have to use these things, it won't do much good that they're so powerful if they get shot down by some bob-standard fighter whose pilot was far better than the B-52's, who wasn't used to flying that plane.
There's no point having these things if you don't practice with them, you've already wasted the money.
The fact that they're so horrifically expensive is more an issue about whether to buy them in the first place.
__________________
... I am surprised at your insolence in writing to me at all. You know, as I know, that I bought this constituency... may God's curse light upon you and may it make your women as open and as free to the excise officers as your wives and daughters have always been to me while I have represented your scoundrel corporation.
I have the honour to be... your obliged humble servant, Anthony Henley
- MPs reply to constituent, mid 1700s
Reply With Quote
  #6 (permalink)  
Old 02-24-2008, 10:55 AM
Shiva_TD Shiva_TD is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 1,905
Quote:
Originally Posted by Caltex View Post
holy shit, $1.2 billion. I guess they were training/practicing flying. Still that's a mighty expensive training mission.

The costs of the B-2 bomber have been highly distorted by politicians and the media. I know, I worked on the program in the early "black world" years before congress became involved.

Here are a few little known historical facts.

The US government originally proposed the B-1 bomber as a replacement for the aging B-52's in the 1970's but "stealth" technology changed the desires of the military and a RFQ (request for quote) as submitted to the major defense aerospace companies. Lockheed (who was already in the early years of production of the F-117) and Northrop eventually submitted proposals and Northrop won the contract. It included the prototype development of two scale model "proof of concept" airplanes, seven develpoment airplanes and a BAM (basic assumption memo) for the production of 250 airplanes. The B-1A program was ended because it didn't have the stealth characteristics desired by the Air Force.

This was of course "black world" at the time and few even in congress knew of the program. There were huge expenses early on not just in developing the new technology but also the acqusition of facitilities for a black world program. Northrop purchased the former Ford Motor Company facility in Pico Rivera CA, remodeled it and added 180,000 sq/ft for the production shop of the forward center section while balance of the airplane was contracted out predominately to Boeing which manufactured the wings. As with all new enterprises this was a major cost but would have been absorbed by the production run. The facilities, design, development of scale model test airplanes , testing, tooling, planing, security, and start-up costs were in the billions of dollars. All of these expenses have been included in the $1.2 billion price tag of the B-2's.

Northrop, at this time, was working on the program based upon "cost-plus" funding based upon the government contract. Northrop made an offer to the DOD for a fixed price of $154M per airplane (less engines which the Air Force typically supplies) for the production of the B2. Northrop did have two conditions. First was this price excluded the development costs of the two scale model airplanes and the first seven B2's which were also defined as development airplanes. Second was that Northrop was to be allowed to build the balance of 243 airplanes at the most economical rate of productions (i.e. Northrop would build the airplanes and get a check when delivered without a defined rate of production by the government).


Several things then happened that adveresely effected the program both in number of airplanes build and the related cost per airplane

Being a Black World program the American public was unaware of this program our politicians were taking heat for not building the B-1 to replace the B-52's so the "political" decision was made to build 100 B1-B's (a modified version of the original 2 B1-A test aircraft that had not met the original specifications). The budget for the 100 B1-B's was taken from the B2 budget at the cost of 118 B2's reducing the order base of B2's from 250 to 132.

Next the program went "White World" and Congress intervened to greatly reduce the production rate of the B2 basically driving up the costs. Work in the factory almost came to a stand-still while Congress began intervening in the program and the costs related to these delays was huge. Instead of producing airplanes the facilities were almost idle driving up the overhead costs of the program. And, of course, Congress also began reducing the number of airplanes that were to be built while including the program development costs in the price tag of the airplanes.

The development costs related to the technology and testing the POC (proof of concept) should never have been included in the production costs of the B2. Those costs exist whether there is production or not and would not have been that great per airplane had the original BAM for 250 airplanes been followed.

Just a couple more facts. All together 22 B2's have been built plus the two scale model test airplanes. The per airplane costs, which were driven up because of reduced production rates by Congress, for airplanes 8 to 22 which excludes the first 7 full-size test aircraft, was about $500 million each. So of the approximately $42 billion dollars spent on the entire program about $7.5 billion was spent for production and $35 billion was spent on development. Had Congress reduced the number of airplanes to just the seven test airplanes the "reported" cost per airplane would have been $7 billion each or, if Congress had reduced the number of airplanes to just one it would have cost about $29 billion (the actual cost of building the first 7 test airplanes was estimated at about $1 billion each which dropped by 50% on the production airplanes even at the reduced production rates).

If you have followed all of this then let me give you some numbers of what the cost of airplane would or could have been.

The development and production of the first 7 B2's would have been $35 billion.

Had the DOD accepted the Northrop fixed rate offer of $154 million per airplane for the balance of production of 243 production airplanes that would have equaled about $37.5 billion.

The total program costs for 250 B2's would have been $72.5 billion or about $290 million per airplane including ALL development costs.

Instead of spending $72.5 billion for 250 B2's, because of political intervention, we spent $42 billion for 22.

So when people talk about the costs of a B2 bomber remember that the outrageous cost is not due to the airplane so much as it is a reflection of your elected representatives mismanagement of the program. It wasn't private industry that drove up the costs it was the government that drove up the cost per airplane.
Reply With Quote
  #7 (permalink)  
Old 02-24-2008, 11:46 AM
Caltex's Avatar
Caltex Caltex is offline
Earl
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,842
Location: Austin, Texas
Country:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shiva_TD View Post
The costs of the B-2 bomber have been highly distorted by politicians and the media. I know, I worked on the program in the early "black world" years before congress became involved.

Here are a few little known historical facts.

The US government originally proposed the B-1 bomber as a replacement for the aging B-52's in the 1970's but "stealth" technology changed the desires of the military and a RFQ (request for quote) as submitted to the major defense aerospace companies. Lockheed (who was already in the early years of production of the F-117) and Northrop eventually submitted proposals and Northrop won the contract. It included the prototype development of two scale model "proof of concept" airplanes, seven develpoment airplanes and a BAM (basic assumption memo) for the production of 250 airplanes. The B-1A program was ended because it didn't have the stealth characteristics desired by the Air Force.

This was of course "black world" at the time and few even in congress knew of the program. There were huge expenses early on not just in developing the new technology but also the acqusition of facitilities for a black world program. Northrop purchased the former Ford Motor Company facility in Pico Rivera CA, remodeled it and added 180,000 sq/ft for the production shop of the forward center section while balance of the airplane was contracted out predominately to Boeing which manufactured the wings. As with all new enterprises this was a major cost but would have been absorbed by the production run. The facilities, design, development of scale model test airplanes , testing, tooling, planing, security, and start-up costs were in the billions of dollars. All of these expenses have been included in the $1.2 billion price tag of the B-2's.

Northrop, at this time, was working on the program based upon "cost-plus" funding based upon the government contract. Northrop made an offer to the DOD for a fixed price of $154M per airplane (less engines which the Air Force typically supplies) for the production of the B2. Northrop did have two conditions. First was this price excluded the development costs of the two scale model airplanes and the first seven B2's which were also defined as development airplanes. Second was that Northrop was to be allowed to build the balance of 243 airplanes at the most economical rate of productions (i.e. Northrop would build the airplanes and get a check when delivered without a defined rate of production by the government).


Several things then happened that adveresely effected the program both in number of airplanes build and the related cost per airplane

Being a Black World program the American public was unaware of this program our politicians were taking heat for not building the B-1 to replace the B-52's so the "political" decision was made to build 100 B1-B's (a modified version of the original 2 B1-A test aircraft that had not met the original specifications). The budget for the 100 B1-B's was taken from the B2 budget at the cost of 118 B2's reducing the order base of B2's from 250 to 132.

Next the program went "White World" and Congress intervened to greatly reduce the production rate of the B2 basically driving up the costs. Work in the factory almost came to a stand-still while Congress began intervening in the program and the costs related to these delays was huge. Instead of producing airplanes the facilities were almost idle driving up the overhead costs of the program. And, of course, Congress also began reducing the number of airplanes that were to be built while including the program development costs in the price tag of the airplanes.

The development costs related to the technology and testing the POC (proof of concept) should never have been included in the production costs of the B2. Those costs exist whether there is production or not and would not have been that great per airplane had the original BAM for 250 airplanes been followed.

Just a couple more facts. All together 22 B2's have been built plus the two scale model test airplanes. The per airplane costs, which were driven up because of reduced production rates by Congress, for airplanes 8 to 22 which excludes the first 7 full-size test aircraft, was about $500 million each. So of the approximately $42 billion dollars spent on the entire program about $7.5 billion was spent for production and $35 billion was spent on development. Had Congress reduced the number of airplanes to just the seven test airplanes the "reported" cost per airplane would have been $7 billion each or, if Congress had reduced the number of airplanes to just one it would have cost about $29 billion (the actual cost of building the first 7 test airplanes was estimated at about $1 billion each which dropped by 50% on the production airplanes even at the reduced production rates).

If you have followed all of this then let me give you some numbers of what the cost of airplane would or could have been.

The development and production of the first 7 B2's would have been $35 billion.

Had the DOD accepted the Northrop fixed rate offer of $154 million per airplane for the balance of production of 243 production airplanes that would have equaled about $37.5 billion.

The total program costs for 250 B2's would have been $72.5 billion or about $290 million per airplane including ALL development costs.

Instead of spending $72.5 billion for 250 B2's, because of political intervention, we spent $42 billion for 22.

So when people talk about the costs of a B2 bomber remember that the outrageous cost is not due to the airplane so much as it is a reflection of your elected representatives mismanagement of the program. It wasn't private industry that drove up the costs it was the government that drove up the cost per airplane.
Didn't know that, thanks for the info. Quadrupling the cost per plane out of incompetence... heh.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #8 (permalink)  
Old 02-24-2008, 12:08 PM
Shiva_TD Shiva_TD is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 1,905
Quote:
Originally Posted by Caltex View Post
Didn't know that, thanks for the info. Quadrupling the cost per plane out of incompetence... heh.
I wouldn't call it incompetence. Members of Congress were fully briefed on the program and knew what they were doing. It was a deliberate action based upon political agendas of the politicians and they intentionally distorted the numbers for their own purposes. Certainly the interests of America were not a consideration at the time. Only their political rhetoric mattered to them. It was about incumbants seeking re-election at the expense of the nation. This is a common occurance because virtually all career politicians would gladly sell the country down the drain to be re-elected.

What I find sad is that the media goes along with the political sound-bites without doing the investigating reporting they should be engaged in.

By the way, I'm working on the Joint Strike Fighter program and the politicians are fucking with this program driving up the costs as well. The truth is that Congress should allocate the money to the US military and then let the military determine how best to use it. Instead we have politicians dictating the purchase of hardware that the military neither wants or needs. Patty Murray managed to get two or three ships built for the Navy that the Navy doesn't want and won't use because she "earmarked" the production for a WA state ship building company. I know that because I live in WA but this happens all the time. The Bradley Fighting Vehicle was another white elephant shoved off on the military and it cost billions to make it usable. The Humvee was another POS program dictated by Congress.

Yes, all of these programs do have one or two military supporters but given their choice and limited funding the military makes better decisions about military hardware than Congress.

By the way, did you read that the Air Force is now looking at building a new strategic bomber to replace the aging B-52's. The B2 was the replacement but because Congress basically killed it now we have to start over again with a new expensive program. Will the proposed airplane be better than the B2? Undoubtably yes but if we had 250 B2's we wouldn't need the many tens of billions required to start from scratch agian on a new bomber for at least 50 years.
Reply With Quote
  #9 (permalink)  
Old 02-25-2008, 05:50 AM
Martin Martin is offline
Temporarily Banned
My home is were my stella is
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 251
Location: Resident of Cathay's fragrant harbour, traveling on a EU passport
Country:
Send a message via Skype™ to Martin
Quote:
Originally Posted by W.E.B. Du Bois View Post
The pilots are safe.

We gotta stop flying these planes too much. This was inevitable. You don't use these planes unless you absolutely have to. They are too expensive to replace.

VOA News - US Stealth Bomber Crashes in Guam
I will have to agree with Bro of Oz. Ask any pilot what is the most important thing to fly and operate sophisticated stuff like that:
It's training, training and training.
BTW, did I mention training?
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On



All times are GMT -4. The time now is 06:55 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2008, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.0.0 RC6
A vBSkinworks Design
vB Ad Management by =RedTyger=

right