AzTeK

Let's compare the "should be" and the "is" scnerio for a minute here. This is the "should be" plan:

http://z.about.com/f/wiki/e/en/9/97/...stine_1947.png

This is the "is" situation:

http://geology.com/world/israel-map.gif

You see - we got a problem here. And it is very onesided in terms of geography.

The barrier is a freaking concrete wall that goes beyond even the current official Israeli territory. There's nothing "movable" about that. It's as if saying the Great Chinese wall was movable.

Both sides have not been very cooperative I would say. See the maps above as to what land belongs to who according to the international community's draft. 33 votes to 10 in the security council. But then again it only prooves that noone cares what the UN proposes anyways, sad for in some cases it might actually save people a lot of trouble.

Well, just recently Israel announced it was massively expanding its settlements in the occupied areas. That seems an awfully long-term plan that hardly qualifies as "changeable". What do you want to do if it came to an agreement? Tear all the freshly built houses down? Surely not. I'd say this move is a clear indication Israel is not planning to move anywhere anytime soon.

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hbloms

Pakistan, Iran and Serbia are the current hotspots... Now talking about WORLD PEACE that's not much... Serbia might turn into some kind of political split between Europe and Russia as in the Cold War, except Europe is fully functional today (unlike 20 years ago, half of it was occupied).

If Iran shows to be making nukes we've got BIG ISSUES + problems... Especially since like 20,000,000 american rednecks will get scared again...
"Help! Model airplanes with bombs strapped to it!"

Now the pakistani government does seem quite stable and most pakistani people want the peace to last, but in countries like those all they need is an international peace corpse to create chaos...

Best bids... Free to discuss them...

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"Democracy has nothing to do with freedom. It's just an oppressors way of suppressing a minority..."

"Everyone's a pacifist between wars. It's like being a vegetarian between meals."

"Knowledge is knowing how to, Wisdom is knowing why."

"An open mind is like a castle, with its gates unbarred and guards asleep."

Ronnie

Come on! You've got to be kidding me!

First: Since when has the UN EVER been objective?! Israel is discriminated against in every single breath taken in-between UN-debates! Israel would be utterly, densely, moronically stupid to listen to a mere syllable that comes out of the UN!
The only good thing that has ever come out of the UN to Israel was the "gracious" decision to give Jews the mandate of Israel - something that should have long before that been ours, and even that for guilty conscience of letting 6 millions of us get slaughtered!

Second: The "should be" map would never work! Why? - 'Cause I hate to break it to ya - two states - an Arab one and a Jewish one - so closely intertwined would be a recipe for disaster!
More than a million Arabs peacefully live in Israel. They have equal rights. They have representatives in the Israeli parliament - The Knesset. Can you imagine such a thing under Muslim rule?! Not only would we not be given the time of day, but we'd be killed and mutilated until the last drop of Jewish blood is soaked in the ground! That's the likely scenario of your """SHOULD BE""" map!

COME ON! Talk about preposterous... quoting UN resolutions... if we listened, we'd be 6 feet under, or somewhere close - the world would be happy to be rid of this annoying problem - the Jews... Only - we're NOT going anywhere...

Kazikli Bey

I find that funny, considering that Arabs are Semitic people, so are they racists against themselves?

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AzTeK

@Ronnie:

I don't see what's unfair about the UN-proposed borders. They seem perfectly all right to me - with one exception that I admit is a major problem: Jerusalem.

Appart from that, there's really no problem with it that I can dicern.

You mention that two states are a recipe for disaster - does that mean you are calling for the complete occupation of Palestine? Coz nothing short of that will solve the "two states so closely interwined" problem you bring up.

It is also really arguable as to who that land belongs to in the first place. The land in the region of Palestine changed hands so many times over it's more likely it belongs to noone than to anyone. Sure, Jews were there "first", but that time is 2000 years past. By that logic, you could also argue that France belongs to Italy since France was once part of the Roman Empire. It's as if saying Austria somehow belongs to Germany just because we have a similar culture and language - we all know how that sort of claims played out.

This is not an issue about "you are on my land, get out". That's childish. It's an issue about "how can we get this to work". A one-state solution is not acceptable, neither is the current situation. The UN partition plan seems fair if some minor adjustments are taken into consideration - but if you have a better proposition, I'll gladly listen to it.

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Martin

According to the bible they were the "first" over there after butchering those who lived there before them. That's what their bible (or whatever they call it) says, not me!

Ronnie

Come on... you know damn well what people mean when they say "anti-Semites"

Ronnie

Well, it's irrelevant what I think about the 'two states solution', 'cause there wouldn't be a way around that now, even if I didn't agree with it.

Basically I think trusting them in the first place, believing they would be willing to let bygones be bygones and move on to a better future for all of our children, was an understatement of 'an enormous blunder'.

Anyway, I was talking about the 'two states so closely intertwined'...
The two states don't stand a chance in the layout of the borders depicted in that preposterous map. You just have to read the news of two days in the Middle East, or better yet come live here, in Israel for 5 minutes to see how utterly ridiculous that border-outline seems.

I never said it should be like "you are on my land, get out". If you look at it objectively, you'll see that Israel has been way too patient with the "Pals". What country in the entire SANE world would put up with months upon months of its citizens living under constant barrages of rockets?! What leader in his right mind would sit idly by as people who voted for him, people he should care for and look after, are slaughtered day in and day out across the country, be it by suicide bombers or rocket launchers...? You should try to answer this question first in your next reply, if there is an answer...

AzTeK

Any leader in his sane mind of any country in a similar position to Israel would be using extreme caution and restraint. Don't forget that the 2007 Israeli military budget amounted to $9,4 billion. The US military aid to Israel in 2006 was $2,3 Billion. In other words, the US finances around 25% of Israels army.

Total official US aid to Israel in 2006 was $2,53 billion - the 2003 total Israeli budget was aorund $60 Billion. That means the US pays for almost 5% of Israeli budget.

It is ugly, very definitely, but Israel is totally and absolutely reliant on the US. Israeli politicians have a dam hard job weighing every little action they make so they don't anger the international community too much, for they cannot risk the international community turning their backs on Israel. Israel is on its on in that region, with every single country basically against it (some not openly since the US has bought them out as well). I am on your side, do not doubt, but don't ask me to turn a blind eye on the atrocities that also Israelis are committing.

You have to remember that in the past 3 years, 1290 people including 220 children have been killed on the Palestinian side. Israel has "only" had 86 casualties, 8 of them being children. I know the whole "they started it" argument, and every nation has a right to defend itself, but let's just put the numbers into context a bit.

It is probably one of the biggest tragedies and political failings of the young 21st century that the US wound up being responsible for the killings of an estimated half a million Iraqis in order to avenge 2000 US civilian casualties - let's learn from our mistakes, shall we? Self-defense is good, necessary and all, but let's not use Bazookas to take down Pidgeons. The current situation is not sustainable. Military action on both sides has failed. I propose sitting down and talking about that UN partition plan, for in my eyes it makes sense. What is your proposition? Annihilation of Palestine? Who's to follow after they'r gone? Jordan? Syria? Lebanon? If you keep going you'll have borders with Iran as well, might just get rid of them also. You cannot win militarily.

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LoveDubai

How can you say that Arabs are anti semites?!!

Arabs have never been Anti semites! Anti semites come from europe, so dont get confussed!