Iraq - Why We Should Leave Now - Page 14 - Political Forum

catawba · #**131** (**permalink**) 05-12-2008, 12:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ummwhat

Now, what do you think would happen if we let it go to hell in a hand basket by pulling out early?

The same argument was used in Vietnam. As a result, the following casualties occured:

The lowest casualty estimates, based on the now-renounced North Vietnamese statements, are around 1.5 million Vietnamese killed. Vietnam released figures on April 3, 1995 that a total of one million Vietnamese combatants and four million civilians were killed in the war. The accuracy of these figures has generally not been challenged. 58,226 American soldiers also died in the war or are missing in action. Australia lost almost 500 of the 47,000 troops they had deployed to Vietnam and New Zealand lost 38 soldiers.

I find it amazing that people have forgotten Vietnam so quickly. If the war had ended earlier in Vietnam, what would have happened when we left? Nothing different then when we eventually left, a sudden decrease in American and Vietnamese deaths. Are we prepared to again sacrifice the lives of 58,000 American soldiers and millions of Iraqis/Iranians for their oil? Or should we learn from history and stop the war now and use the 20 Billion dollars a month we are spending on the war to develop alternatives to foreign oil, and eliminate millions of needless deaths?

Ummwhat · #**132** (**permalink**) 05-12-2008, 08:05 AM

And I find it odd how people still compare Iraq to Vietnam. There is a major difference here.

catawba · #**133** (**permalink**) 05-12-2008, 10:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ummwhat

And I find it odd how people still compare Iraq to Vietnam. There is a major difference here.

Pray tell how, in what it means to the people of the countries we invaded? We are killing and damaging their country worse than their previous enemies. It is impossible to win the hearts and minds of those you mistreat. In this way, there is exactly no difference between Vietnam and Iraq.

NoCountry · #**134** (**permalink**) 05-12-2008, 10:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ummwhat

And I find it odd how people still compare Iraq to Vietnam. There is a major difference here.

Yeah, it rains more in Viet-Nam.

GlobalSmiles · #**135** (**permalink**) 05-12-2008, 10:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by catawba

The same argument was used in Vietnam. As a result, the following casualties occured:

The lowest casualty estimates, based on the now-renounced North Vietnamese statements, are around 1.5 million Vietnamese killed. Vietnam released figures on April 3, 1995 that a total of one million Vietnamese combatants and four million civilians were killed in the war. The accuracy of these figures has generally not been challenged. 58,226 American soldiers also died in the war or are missing in action. Australia lost almost 500 of the 47,000 troops they had deployed to Vietnam and New Zealand lost 38 soldiers.

I find it amazing that people have forgotten Vietnam so quickly. If the war had ended earlier in Vietnam, what would have happened when we left? Nothing different then when we eventually left, a sudden decrease in American and Vietnamese deaths. Are we prepared to again sacrifice the lives of 58,000 American soldiers and millions of Iraqis/Iranians for their oil? Or should we learn from history and stop the war now and use the 20 Billion dollars a month we are spending on the war to develop alternatives to foreign oil, and eliminate millions of needless deaths?

How quickly we forget and omit the reality of what happened after we left Vietnam. It not like Iraq in a lot of things but it is in what will happen if we don't get things fixed.

http://www.genocidewatch.org/images/...uAbandonUs.pdf

So yes we have a duty to see that the Iraqi government we leave behind has some sense of control over its countryside.

Its China's oil, not ours. The only sense in which their oil coming online helps us is in that it increases Chinese supplies. Therefore it might push cost down a bit.

Iraq is beginning to understand that we don't even want to be there, we just want to see something of a free and somewhat open society there when we leave.

catawba · #**136** (**permalink**) 05-12-2008, 11:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GlobalSmiles

How quickly we forget and omit the reality of what happened after we left Vietnam. It not like Iraq in a lot of things but it is in what will happen if we don't get things fixed.

http://www.genocidewatch.org/images/...uAbandonUs.pdf

Even if I concede the figures in your article are correct, that is still 2 million less than we killed, which supports my point.

Its China's oil, not ours. The only sense in which their oil coming online helps us is in that it increases Chinese supplies. Therefore it might push cost down a bit.

12:00 AM CDT on Tuesday, September 11, 2007

By DAVE MICHAELS and ELIZABETH SOUDER / The Dallas Morning News

Hunt Oil Co. took a leap of faith over the weekend by agreeing to become the largest U.S. energy company to explore for oil in Iraq since the war began.

If all goes well, the Dallas oil company, with its close White House ties, acquires an early foothold in an important oil patch.

"The region as a whole looks very promising," said Jeanne Phillips, a spokeswoman for Hunt Oil, adding that the company does not yet know how much oil its concession could produce.

Iraq is beginning to understand that we don't even want to be there, we just want to see something of a free and somewhat open society there when we leave.

Apparently, not so you would notice -
BAGHDAD (Reuters) - Fighting in Baghdad's Shi'ite slum of Sadr City made April the deadliest month for Iraqi civilians since last August and for U.S. troops since last September, figures obtained on Wednesday showed.

Iraqi Health Ministry figures showed 968 civilian deaths in April, the most in eight months. On Wednesday the U.S. military reported the deaths of five more of its soldiers in Baghdad, raising its monthly toll to 49.

bradybastian · #**137** (**permalink**) 05-15-2008, 11:46 AM

It is different when you go there and spend a significant amount of your life with these people.

you can see the news, and see "4000" american soldiers dead. or you can see "250 iraqi civilians killed" in a terrorist attack. but when you go there, and your buddy dies, when he gets ripped in half by an IED, or you see the smoke and the burning bodies from a terrorist attack that was targeting innocent civilians, or you play ping pong with some iraqi kids, or you adopt a puppy in iraq (yes, not exactly hooah, but it really does mean something wen your away form home for so long), your perspective changes.

i know a few of you have read my manifest destiny post, and i reiterate it now. it is our job to help these people. they look to us to help them. we let them down after desert storm, we will not let them down again. we cannot allow this on our conscience.

when was the last time you heard on the news that the iraqis are helping to rebuild their economy? that they are attempting to rebuild their roads, or parks, or schools?

where do you hear about the rights of women that are now allowed to attend the university for FREE? or how about the THOUSANDS of iraqis employed on the military's dollar?

All you hear is how many people die. or how stupid iran acts towards their neighbor, trying to undermine their freedom because they know their people will revolt when they see what iraq can become.

catawba · #**138** (**permalink**) 05-16-2008, 12:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bradybastian

It is different when you go there and spend a significant amount of your life with these people.

you can see the news, and see "4000" american soldiers dead. or you can see "250 iraqi civilians killed" in a terrorist attack. but when you go there, and your buddy dies, when he gets ripped in half by an IED, or you see the smoke and the burning bodies from a terrorist attack that was targeting innocent civilians, or you play ping pong with some iraqi kids, or you adopt a puppy in iraq (yes, not exactly hooah, but it really does mean something wen your away form home for so long), your perspective changes.

i know a few of you have read my manifest destiny post, and i reiterate it now. it is our job to help these people. they look to us to help them. we let them down after desert storm, we will not let them down again. we cannot allow this on our conscience.

when was the last time you heard on the news that the iraqis are helping to rebuild their economy? that they are attempting to rebuild their roads, or parks, or schools?

where do you hear about the rights of women that are now allowed to attend the university for FREE? or how about the THOUSANDS of iraqis employed on the military's dollar?

All you hear is how many people die. or how stupid iran acts towards their neighbor, trying to undermine their freedom because they know their people will revolt when they see what iraq can become.

Your compassion for the Iraqis seems sincere and I commend you for that. At the same time you have to understand that our occupation and continued occupation has brought much of the damage and death to the citizens there. We will not be successful in winning the hearts and minds of the Iraqis at the end of a gun at the same time our companies are signing contracts on the oil there. It is a nice salve to pretend we are there for humanitarian purposes, but is not an accurate assessment.