why don't you provide links if you state these as facts. Also you are calling things facts that can only be statistics provided by more-than-likely a biased source. I mean, I've already read posts where people refute your posts and provide links disagreeing... so these can't be "facts".... I mean how can a country being "better off" be a fact.... that is literally your opinion...
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The majority of the Iraqi People have repeatedly stated that they want the US military out of their country.
As bad as Saddam was Iraq was better off under Saddam than it is under the US occupation.
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that is a ridiculous idea. Saddam tortured and commited genocide. We are not doing that. Plus, looking at current conditions, you are looking at the first what... four years since the country has gone through its political changes? The U.S. had many problems as well when it first started.
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Al Qaeda in Iraq (not associated with Osama bin Ladin's al Qaeda except in name) only represents 2% of the opposition forces according the US estimates. While they can rightfully be called thugs and criminals they are not a major issue related to the violence in Iraq.
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not just Al-Quaeda, I am also referring to the militias. And I hear you say on some posts that the majority of combat over there is U.S. vs insurgency. That's not true. What about the sunni's and the shi'ites? These past few days have seen a lot of U.S. fighting, but that is not normal.
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As General Petarius has stated, while there has been minimal progress politically in Iraq that progress is not assured and could easily be reversed. The big issues remain unresolved and predominately relate to the US presence in Iraq which millions of Iraqis oppose.
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People often speak of the vacuum that would be left if the U.S. left. There is a vacuum now, and the U.S. is waiting for someone with sense, honesty, and reason to take the lead. Of course, also one that likes America. It is unfortunate that they are not doing more to help themselves, but you are wrong if you think they aren't trying.
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The US is not in Iraq for the Iraqi People of for economic reasons but is instead in Iraq to establish a military staging point for a possible invasion of Iran.
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The U.S. is not there to build a military staging ground to attack Iran.
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The US military presence in Iraq creates instability in the Middle East.
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I don't know if you noticed, but U.S. Presence didn't create any "instability." The region has been unstable for like 2000 years. U.S. just, arguably regretfully, got involved in the madness.
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By 2002 Saddam did not have WMD's and didn't even have programs for their future production. To state that Saddam presented a possible threat of WMD production prior to the hostile US invasion of Iraq is pure bullshit.
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Now we can say that. I said that then. But the majority of the good-conscienced americans thought other-wise.
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All People of a nation have the right and duty to defend their nation against the hostile invasion of their country by a foreign nation.
The reduction of violence by military tyranny is an oxymoron. You do not reduce violence by committing acts of violence.
If the US leaves Iraq there will be less violence and not more. The majority of violence in Iraq is because of the US presence.
The estimated 80,000+ Iraqi dead since the US invasion in 2003 exceeds by far the number of dead that have been identified as dying from the tyranny of Saddam's regime. As bad as Saddam was Iraq is worse off under the US occupation.
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from wikipedia article "Human rights in Saddam Hussein's Iraq":
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Al-Anfal Campaign: In 1988, the Hussein regime began a campaign of extermination against the Kurdish people living in Northern Iraq. This is known as the Anfal campaign. The attacks resulted in the death of at least 50,000 (some reports estimate as many as 100,000 people), many of them women and children. A team of Human Rights Watch investigators determined, after analyzing eighteen tons of captured Iraqi documents, testing soil samples and carrying out interviews with more than 350 witnesses, that the attacks on the Kurdish people were characterized by gross violations of human rights, including mass executions and disappearances of many tens of thousands of noncombatants, widespread use of chemical weapons including Sarin, mustard gas and nerve agents that killed thousands, the arbitrary imprisoning of tens of thousands of women, children, and elderly people for months in conditions of extreme deprivation, forced displacement of hundreds of thousands of villagers after the demolition of their homes, and the wholesale destruction of nearly two thousand villages along with their schools, mosques, farms, and power stations.
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hahahaha and you say they are worse off now.... anyways...
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If the US leaves Iraq will eventually stabilize itself. As long as the US stays it will not. It is the opposition to the US occupation that creates the instability moreso than any other factor.
If the Iraqis wanted the US military in Iraq we wouldn't require the fortified "green zone" to protect us from the Iraqis.
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Okay so essentially I have a few problems. First you say the country will stabilize itself if we left. If you really cared at all about world politics, why would you consider handing over the amount of money we just spent on that... the tanks, the guns, the training, etc... to the hands of.... nobody?
Essentially we would cut our losses, and even worse, hand over what we spent it all on to someone who potentially could be our enemy. And this would lead to the country's stabilization. a handful of weapons distributed amongst several different factions. Stabilization. Not synonyms.
You can't just screw around with your allies and enemies like that. We stand for the Iraqi people. The people who deserve to have that country are the Kurds. The Iraqi officials steal our money and fight with each other over territory. The kurds are the only ones who have felt oppression and care for their survival and maturation as a society and economical force.
I really have to stress what an opportunity this is for the world as a whole. You look at numbers now but fail to look at all of the future.
What we are doing is trying to forgo the years of civil, political, and economical evolution that a society undergoes through years of strife, famine, and revolution through experience by in a sense forcing our culture that has reached this point onto them. Okay maybe that's bad, but it was just as bad before, and this has muchmore potential at creating a stable middle east than letting them sort it out. And a stable middle east means lower oil prices, and also provides an example for 3rd world countries to witness and aspire to be.
I read a point that no society has ever gone from several warring tribes to unification without blood and one winner. Charlemagne used the church, however, to unify Europe. America has much good. Right now a lot of american brokers and bankers are all screwed up morally. Just look at the Lobbyist running our country.
But if we get our stuff together, and they get theirs together, we can get things done. 200 years from now (i know most people on the internet don't seem to have a future past the end of the mayan calendar in 2012), we can have had left now and find a middle-east in the same turmoil, or we can find a world with a stable, booming middle-east ( I call it the middle-easy). You guys gotta have confidence in changing the world. You all want world peace but don't do anything but whine about people trying to do some good.
Another point: most of the Iraqi people that you say hate America and think things were better when Saddam was around are the people that Saddam didn't kill-off: his Aryan Race, if you will. Of course they don't want freedom and equality there, they had the bigger slice of the pie.
All you who say America is so wrong for doing this and we are enforcing our culture onto them and blah blah blah whine whine whine.... Their cultures creates terrorist who want you dead. They are not imaginary, they have attacked our country a few times, but the rest of the world has felt their blind, vicious hatred a thousand times more. Sure, doing any sort of oppression on a culture is wrong, but, if you think we are doing bad, then take a look around. Take a look at your freedoms and your possessions and how easy it is for you to be fed, and kept warm, and have running water and power. That is what you are giving people who have known nothing but trouble for thousands of years. And also, if you think we are doing bad, then who is going to stop this? another thousand years of murder? or only 20 years because they get possession of nuclear weaponry. Use your heads people!
And they dont just want us dead! They want everyone dead! Look at the oppression of Israeli's by violent extremist all over the world. In Pakistan they throw rocks on jews, in Israel they give front row seats to pakistani, and feed them and more.
In the country of Iraq there are extremely violent fanatical Islamic madmen who want nothing but death of non-believers for simply racist reasons. In America we do not allow slavery, and we should not let anyone in the world treat people with racism.
And we are doing good all over regarding getting water and power to people.
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