i have a feeling when we leave iraq, and not on our terms, it will make vietnam look like a well organized withdrawal

Who said that I am a conservative? At one point I was, but my views on things like drugs, gays, and several other things remove me from that party. That does not mean that I do not hold a lot of conservative beliefs. Additionally, does having contractos qualify as a conservative belief? Remember that Clinton was in office when a majority of these contractors were hired.

I seriously disagree with the number of contractors we have in the military.

Take NMCI for example (the company that runs and maintains the computers for the Corps). A tech with no clearance makes 38k a year. They are doing a job that used to be done by a Lance Corporal. Then factor in what they have to pay the contractor for healthcare and they are spending a ton more. Now know that our networks worked better when ran by Marines.

No I am no fan of contractors. Yes some GS spots are needed, and need to be imbedded with some types of units. But not to the level they have today.

Still not so much. Just to lock on the flights and move ships to take people would take more than three months.

You see every ship has a mission set 18 months out (actual flights can be locked on as early as a month, but wait). To redirect them, you have to come up with a new TEEP. Then you have to find a way to cover what they were supposed to be doing (this includes planes).

It aint going to happen. Hell, look at how long it took us to simply build up the initial force. Times that by four to get them home.

Now talking about blowing up everything that we can not remove.

Yeah that may work. But then you also have to look at what you are blowing up. Yes it may render it inoperable. But the materials are still there. Say you blow up a MRAP. You just gave the enemy the latest state of the art armor. Bad bad idea.

You then have to look at environmental effects of blowing up stuff. Fuel, DU, etc. It is not that simple.

I am sure that some non essential stuff could and will be left behind. But you have to bring back most of it.

Then you are talking about the many billions you would be wasting.

Just working some quick math, we would be loosing more cash by destroying all this stuff, than we would in staying there longer.

Now if IF we decided to pull everyone out, and it is going to take a year or more. That does not mean that we will be operating for that year.

__________________
"America is not at war. The U.S. military is at war. America is at the
mall."

i think former chicago mayor had an answer to the problem of how to get out;

Your preachin to the choir on that. Take KBR that does a load of clothes for a GI in Iraq (that's wash, dry and fold a maximum of 24 pieces) for $100.00 of taxpayer money. Then there's the little gal who hands out towels at the Gym in Baquba for 120 K/per year.

Yup, and the chow halls. We have field mess for that. But enough about contractors. Back to topic.

Calm.

As I already explained, it is not as simple as all that, for the reasons I explained above.

Thank you for actually responding to my post. I apreciate it, and I apologize that I did not respond to it earlier.

That could happen. And yes, there are a number of insurgents there because we are there. But one thing you will find about insurgents is this. They would have pushed in there anyway even if we would have pulled out as soon as Saddam was overthrown.

Our purpose now is to train the ISF and POB while maintaining security while they fix themselves. Once they are able to handle things we could pull a majority of our folks out. If we get the ISF and POB trained up, they will be able to handle things until such time that the bad guys get with the program. If we leave now yes they will fall into civil war. Once that is over, the insurgents would likely win, and what do you think they would do from there? Thats right, they would start targeting us elsewhere. Why not take care of the problem now?

The problem is this. If it did break out into civil war, it would not stop in Iraq. It would spill elsewhere. That would be bad for all.

__________________
"America is not at war. The U.S. military is at war. America is at the
mall."

it is americas duty to solve world problems. Saddam was a horrible man that deserved to be removed from power. The Insurgency is nothing more than a wannabe power struggle.

You think the insurgents are fighiting for Iraqi freedom? you must be naive. Each insurgent group only wants their dude in power. they are nothing more than gangs and thugs. Al Queda is a joke. they are a small group of terrorists that commit atrocious attacks on the innocent. they are responsible for the "mass-casualty" attacks inside iraq. this is why the Sunnis are taking up arms against them.

The cities are run by organized crime rings whos only goal is to accumulate wealth. these crime rings are usually family run, and are not necessarily opposed to US presence. they are interested in getting paid, thats it.

DO NOT PUT A SMILEY FACE STICKER ON THE INSURGENTS. they only want their guy in power, and are willing to kill to do it. all they want is another Saddam-like dictatorship.

We (Americans) put Iraqis in power who we thought would be most able to promote equality and freedom in Iraq. AL Miliki wants a stable Iraq. That is why he is trying to break the Madhi militia, the LAST true opposition to a free Iraqi government. His troops are not ready yet to assume a full role in the defense of their nation. but he is rooting out the unwilling and getting his NCO's(non commissioned officers) battle experience and is working toward stabilization.

it is likely that you will see Americans in a permanent base in Iraq, just like Korea, Germany, Japan, etc. give it another 10-15 years, and Iraq will be a beacon of freedom and economic growth in the Middle East. and America will be there to help them grow and flourish.

Ain't gonna happen.

We've got American kids who watched Shock and Awe in their High School study halls trained up and fighting in Iraq. The insurgents have managed to get trained up, and yet it's been five years, five goddamn years, and The ING or ISF or whatever you call em still ain't worth a shit. Wake up and smell the coffee Umm.

Why? America may be the most prosperous nation by some measures, but that doesn't mean we can afford to solve everybody else's problems. It's unrealistic and usually blows up in our faces.

We've done just as much damage to the people of Iraq, and the stability of the region, as he did.

I am also skeptical that the insurgents would simply disappear after America leaves. Whenever America leaves, they very well might fight each other in a civil war or even genocide. This will happen either way. The only difference is that an American withdrawal will save American money and lives.

Yeah when your country has been occupied and war-torn, there's not much left for people to do to get paid. Getting paid is the primary concern of almost every person in the world, not just thugs. Saddam may have killed people he saw as traitors (Kurds), and squelched all oppostion, but at least the economy was better off.

And that is probably what they will get, regardless of America.

Do Iraqis really want what we value? Equality and freedom? They want a country that respects the Qu'ran and they want their faction in power at the expense of the other factions, as you said yourself.

I doubt that, but either way, it would not have been worth the investment for America.

On a sidenote, somebody mentioned the animosity between Iraq and Iran being based upon Arab vs. Persian. But I think it's also important to note that they are the only countries with Shia majorities. Saddam represented the Sunni minority, and with him gone, I think relations between Iraq and Iran could improve if the Shia majority rule.

How long do you think it takes to train a military from scratch?

It took us something like six years to do it in Germany, and there was no fighting.

__________________
"America is not at war. The U.S. military is at war. America is at the
mall."

Just simply stating it doesn't make it true. Obviously your opinion on the matter is not set in stone . . .

History of Iraqi insurgency - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



I said kill or work with, don't just try to make me look evil, thats just silly.





It is very nationlistic your right, Sunni nationalists, Shea nationalists and Kurd nationalists.


I wonder who and why we'd be trying (a link to someone real saying at would be nice) to leave people out. Don't get me started on Afghanistan though, I find it more hopeless then Iraq.



Sunnis are actually fighting for us from the stories I hear, since that seems to be the going story I think its on you to prove otherwise. Sadr did a ceasefire because he thought we were leaving soon. . .that doesn't sound like someone concerned just about the occupation, that sounds like someone with long term political aims for himself after we leave (new Saddam?). I'm pretty sure he's killed more Iraqis then we have.

Sadr's Militia and the Slaughter in the Streets


I don't think the PKK is very extremist,just Kurd nationalists, yes I agree though that AQ ha no real future in Iraq.

In summary,just because you'd like to think it doesn't make it so, now nether of us are going to change the other's mind about this so again, I respect your position, but disagree with you strongly on it. If you have something that would actually be enlightening on the topic go ahead and share it with me, but stop just spouting off your opinions as fact to me.