calmObserver

damn ~ and just imagine if we had not undertaken this misadventure we would not be having these problems. ah, well, the "experts" told us what was going to happen if we were foolish enough to invade a muslim country

GlobalSmiles

Read couple of textbooks written by muslims. Your snide comments aside, I'd say I respectfully disagree with your view that we are doing Osama's work for him, to me it still falls under damned if you do damned if you don't.

We might as well finish off this surge.

GlobalSmiles

So I take you you are also very much against our invasion Afghanistan?

AzTeK

You can twist it all you want, oppinion polls say something different. 76% of Iraqis think that the US has done "Quite a bad job" or worse. A whoopin 77% of Iraqis think the US has played a negative role in Iraq, 31% - more than any other option - blame the US for the violence going on in Iraq and 69 think US presence has made security worse. 78% oppose the presence of US troops in Iraq. And, get this, 51% of Iraqis find attacks on coalition forces acceptable.

And to top it off, the best thing saved up for last: according to an official poll by the Department of defense, 75% of Sunnis SUPPORT armed insurgency against the occupation. That's over 3.3 million people that support people who fight against the US.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/shared/bsp/h...raqpollnew.pdf
BBC NEWS | Middle East | Iraq poll March 2007: In graphics
http://www.usatoday.com/news/graphic.../iraq_poll.pdf

Sure, as in any case there are always more than one reason, but the US occupation is clearly the paramount one.

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Shiva_TD

Al Sadr has an estimated 40K-80K militia members that are universally opposed to the US occupation of their country. The Sunnis have about an equal number of members in their insurgency militias to oust the US forces from their country. The Kurds only have the PKK that is opposed to the US occupation and their numbers are probably around 20K.

That's about 100,000 armed militia members that are fundamentally united and dedicated to ousting the US forces from Iraq. I would say that any other problems in Iraq are dwarfed by these numbers.

The US occupation of Iraq is by far and away the most serious problem in Iraq today.

GlobalSmiles

I'll stop here by saying I think they and you guys are in for an awful shock the moment you get your wishes.

You will get your wish I'm betting at this point. . .

AzTeK

Both Shiva and myself presented you with facts that undermine our assumption that the US is the main cause for the fighting in Iraq by actually spurring the very insurgency it is at the same time trying to suppress. Since you obviously have run out of arguments, it's the next logic step to just keep on with more empty statements that, in the case of the first one, has 0 substance and, in the case of the second one, is hardly true.

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GlobalSmiles

Ok then how about this, since I seem to be unable to walk away from this with a sense of respect for you guys and myself at he same time, I'd kindly point out that all the insurgencies both of you claim the US caused (mind you the PKK is definitely not part of that, even if we are in their sights now) is a threat to the state of Iraq as well. Since we are trying to prop up a government with some stability when we leave we have to address their mmediate military issues they are going to face while we are still there . . .

100k you guys say? Sounds like we need to bring em into the fold or start killing, I think we have been working on both. I disagree with both of you vehemently on your premise, we messed it up bad and that let there be room for insurgencies to develop. There are actually great articles on how and in what ways we botched the whole thing. Its not as clear as either of you would like it to be.

Anyways my second point is very legit, we leave (your wish), and Iraq splits into three states that end up fighting for the next 40+ years. . .I think we'd all regret that. If you guys don't think Sadr isn't up to something sinister, you are just blind, he has to be cowed or done away with before we go.

Sunnis flipped to our side well over a year ago now, so if thats changed I' like to see some links saying so. Sadr = bad AQ= bad PKK= we should probably refer the whole issue to the UN, should there be a Kurdistan?

Anyways learn to respectfully disagree, I just wanted to stop because I had said my piece and knew I wasn't going to change either of your opinions.

Ummwhat

I would like to know what you three think would happen if we up and pulled out right now.

Granted given the best MAGTF planners we have, it would take a minimum of 15 months to be gone. But what do you think would happen to that country if we left this second?

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"America is not at war. The U.S. military is at war. America is at the
mall."

AzTeK

I'm not sure how Shiva's remark on the PKK plays in, but that Mahdi army together with the Sadrists are already legitimately in the government, and until Nuri al-Maliki decided to pretty much declare an all out war on basically his own people (shi'a), they very disciplinely adhered to the cease fire agreement. Al Sadr further has already said that he will never lay down his weapons (aka disband the Mahdi army) to a government that is unable or unwilling to drive out the occupiers (aka the US), and would only do so to a government that achieves the afore mentioned goal. So there again you see a clear indication that the US is the main reason for the current inter-shi'a conflict as well.

Very unlikely. If you had taken the time to look at the oppinion polls I presenteed to you you'd have seen that 86% of Iraqis want either a unified Iraq or an Iraq with central government in Baghdad but three more or less autonomous regions, both of which are a long way from your scenario. The Sadrists are a legitimate part of the government. You'r "something sinister" remark is the typical boogey-man fear-mongering that got you in this mess to start with. One would think people would learn from their mistakes.

Since you appearently have spent time dealing with the subject you should also know why the Sunnis are supposedly on "our side". Because the US pays them and even arms them. Yet, there are considerable parts of the Sunnis that still engage in armed resistance against the US - probably even with the weapons you gave them.

In Iraq, Sunni insurgents still aim to oust U.S., Shiites | csmonitor.com
US arms Sunni dissidents in risky bid to contain al-Qaida fighters in Iraq | World news | The Guardian

I would support an autonomous Kurdistan within the borders of Iraq as long as the borders end where Iraqi borders end today.

I have no problem agreeing to disagree, but since this is a forum for discussions, I will discuss with you. If you want to end the discussion at any point that's your free decision however it does not at all have to coincide with mine.

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